Talk:Gold

6.6 trillion sounds like a whole lot to me...

I don't understand this sentence from the Production section:

The value of this is very limited; at $1200 per ounce, 165,000 tons of gold would have a value of only 6.6 trillion dollars

What is the context here? In what way is 6.6 trillion a "very limited" value? The gross domestic product of the entire planet in 2010 was around 62 trillion. How is a figure amounting to a little more than 10 percent of Earth's GDP a limited value? 184.77.159.253 (talk) 05:11, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

Gold, mined and accumulated for several milennia, is just 1/10th value of the world's YEARLY GDP. That is a minusclue amount, thus gold coinage based universal money cannot be realized. 82.131.210.163 (talk) 16:51, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

That is the most erroneous argument ever. The entire World was on gold and silver standard because prices (proxy of value) can be set in grams, ounces etc. What you are referring to is price of gold in USD which in no way means that gold cannot be used as global money. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.194.33.220 (talk) 21:14, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

Gold mining pollution

Why is there no mention of gold mining pollution? It's a serious issue. I can't believe noone written about it here, yet. Were there quality issues or is this off topic in this article? Personally I think there's enough gold in vaults etc. and that should be used before new gold is mined. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Darsie42 (talk • contribs) 11:11, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

'kwdt2' added this section pollution on 4 January, 20012, but it is deleted totally within 30 minutes by 'Materialscientist' stating that a single sentence (rich Indians unknowingly fueling gold production) is objectionable material. He would have deleted this sentence which is objectionable. It is unfair to remove entire "pollution" section which is also as important as material 'Gold' If 'Materialscientist' is totally unaware of pollution issues in gold production, he would have asked authentic references from 'kwdt2' in his remarks. kwdt2 demands detailed constructive explaination from 'Materialscientist'here for his actions lest the deleted section would be restored after removing the sentence "rich Indians unknowingly fueling gold production ..." Kwdt2 (talk) 07:08, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

The planned opening of new gold mines in Transylvania, which would work with the cheap and dirty cyanide-based method, is a big source of contention between Romania and Hungary. Hungary used to have Tr. and they are not happy about romanians polluting such a beautiful region with seas of toxic sludge. The canadian company that wants to finance the new mines only cares about profit as it's not their land that gets hurt. Production of gold is a crime against the natural habitat. 82.131.210.163 (talk) 17:17, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

Fake gold needs a paragraph in the article as crime is rising.

Faking of precious metals is sharply increasing due to the current high demand of gold, as people panic about th economic crisis and the emptiness of paper-printed money.

Gold-coated, tungsten cored, "good delivery" stamped fake gold bars are allegedly used by free world countries to defraud chinese buyers, while communist China tries to convert more and more of its increasingly value-less US dollar heaps into something truly tangible. The Youtube video, which showed such a bar after cutting, made a lot of scandal.

Polished copper rings are often sold by gipsy/tzigane fraudsters as street-find gold (hungarian penal law has a specific paragraph for this crime of "gagyizas").

Silver-plating on cuprum is often used to fake large, solid silver objects. Honest vendors stamp such objects with the word "comple" to signify composite metal nature. Dishonest people erase or fill over that. Imagine the buyer's losses with an 5kg "silver" dish.

Edge-trimming of real gold coins used to be a widespread crime before ribbing of the coin's circumference was invented (Aged Isaac Newton hanged a lot of people for trimming coinage)

Surgical steel is used to fake the currently fashionable but low-density, nickel alloyed 14K "white gold". Keep a magnet at hand! Sometimes acid test won't help.

Gold rings and earpieces are often bulbous and hollow on the inside, with a closed interior. Unscrupulous people fill that void with liquid or gypsum to increase the piece's weight for fraudulent sale. 82.131.210.163 (talk) 17:12, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

Precious metal alloy densities in gramm per cubic centimeter:

pure gold a.k.a. 24K is 19.32, 22K is 17.5, 18K greenish tint 15.90, 18K golden tint 15.58, 18K white-gold 14.64, 18K reddish tint 15.18, 14K greenish tint 14.20, 14K golden tint 13.07, 14K white-gold 12.61, 14K reddish tint 13.26 and purest silver is 10.49. Quartz crystals that bear naturally grown gold are 2.60 to 2.65 gramm /cm3. Of course these are only valid for totally solid objects with no voids. 82.131.210.163 (talk) 19:06, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 22 February 2012

'kwdt2' added sub section 'pollution' on 4 January, 20012, but it is deleted totally within 30 minutes by 'Materialscientist' stating that a single sentence (rich Indians unknowingly fueling gold production) is objectionable material. He would have deleted this sentence which is objectionable. It is unfair to remove entire "pollution" section which is also as important as material 'Gold'. In support of my statements, I want to refer the authetic document available in this link" http://www.scribd.com/doc/82418790/Gold-groduction-and-its-environmental-impact ". Is it acceptable to restore text added by me after deleting the words "rich Indians unknowingly fueling gold production" along with this additional reference. Please reply. Kwdt2 (talk) 11:52, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Kwdt2 (talk) 11:52, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Here is the revert. This addition is unfit for several reasons: (i) lack of reliable sources (the scribd link does not qualify as one - furthermore, our firewall blocks this link because it launches something when clicking "download") (ii) WP:UNDUE and WP:OR - the whole passage is an exaggeration (nearly any chemical can kill a human at some dose, it all depends on the dose), with inappropriate mentioning of Chernobyl, "rich Indians", etc. (iii) Problems with style and logic; for example, arsenic and selenium are not heavy metals. Materialscientist (talk) 12:14, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for your reply. Please find below point wise clarifications to your reply on 22 /2/ 2012.

Reliable sources: The document available / uploaded in Scribd virtual library, is the declaration statement of Peoples‘Gold summit, San Juan Ridge, California in June 1999. This summit declaration contains many sections explaining about the detrimental environmental effects of gold production and its futility. This document is contributed by eminent people in their fields. Since this public document was not available in web now, it was uploaded in Scribd virtual library for ready access. In no way the content of this document can be termed as unreliable. I am able to access / download the legible document without any problem.

Neutral point of view and No original research: Adding a sub section on ‘pollution’ is not violating neutral point of view. In fact deleting subsection ‘ pollution’ is violating neutral point of view. Branding content as “ones original research” should not be euphemism for rejecting content. The following links (of BBC, ABC, etc) have compared the Cyanide spill in to the river next to Chernobyl disaster.

http://www.abc.net.au/am/stories/s98890.htm “Cyanide spill second only to Chernobyl”

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/810435/Cyanide-spill-compared-to-Chernobyls---N-disaster.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/642880.stm “Death of a river”

The proposed content by kwdt2 is not once own first hand creation/research. The content does not talk about human deaths by chemical contamination as quoted by you. It says about how minute quantities of heavy metals can make water unfit for consumption.

Problems with style and logic: Please refer to wikipedia stub “Heavy metal (chemistry) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heavy_metal_(chemistry) which accepts arsenic and selenium being termed as heavy metalsThe same statement (including selenium and arsenic under heavy metals) is taken from Peoples‘ Gold summit document and not my own research.I am also not a metallurgist to correctly use the jargon of metallurgy. If style and logic are not up to mark, please refine and improve it but not the whole subsection deleted. I request you to add the content on “pollution” to make the topic more knowledgeable in line with Wikipedia motto. Please reply.Kwdt2 (talk) 11:47, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

Not done: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. The {{edit semi-protected}} template can only be used to make changes which have an actual or presumed consensus. Thanks, Celestra (talk) 15:53, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

I would propose the following content under subsection 'Pollution" please peruse and upload content to the stub "Gold". Please record the objections if any.

==Pollution== Gold production is also associated with contribution to hazardous pollution . Some of this ore is mined from deepest mines of the world. The ore generally containing less than one part per million (ppm) gold metal, is ground and mixed with Sodium cyanide or mercury to react with gold in the ore for gold separation. Cyanide is highly poisonous chemical, which can kill living creatures when exposed in minute quantities. Many cyanide spills from gold mines have taken place worldwide both in developed and poor countries which killed the marine life in long stretch of effected rivers. Environmentalists consider these pollution disasters as major environmental disasters next to nuclear power plant disasters. When mercury is used in gold production, minute quantity of mercury compounds enter in to water bodies causing heavy metal contamination of water. Mercury enters in to food chain in the form of Methyl mercury through fish, etc. Mercury contamination in humans causes incurable severe retardation of brain functions.

Thirty tons of used ore is dumped as waste for producing one finger ring of gold. This ore dump is the source of many heavy metals such as cadmium, lead, zinc, copper, Arsenic, Selenium and mercury. Water is unsuitable for human consumption if these Heavy metal (chemistry) are found in more than one ppm concentration. When sulphide bearing minerals in these ore dumps are exposed to air and water, the sulphide transforms in to sulphuric acid which in turn dissolves the heavy metals facilitating their passage in to surface water and ground water. This process is called Acid mine drainage. The ore dumps of gold contain substantial quantity of heavy metals, which are prone to Acid mine drainage pollution. The gold ore dumps are considered as long term man made hazardous waste next only to nuclear waste dumps. Billions of dollars need to be spent to mitigate the heavy metals pollution from worldwide gold ore dumps which are increasing every year.

Gold extraction is also highly energy intensive industry (25 kwh of electricity per one gram of gold production) to extract ore from deep mines and to grind the large quantity of ore for further chemical extraction. In present day world, underground mining is least preferred employment by workmen as the occupational environment is not suitable for humans. Global gold demand mainly as an accumulation of movable asset, is fueling gold production which is associated with damage to world environment, ecology and forcing workers to unhygienic conditions. India is importing nearly 1000 tons of gold annually which is one third of global gold production.

Kwdt2 (talk) 08:33, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

Not done: Please don't activate the {{edit semi-protected}} template until you have reached a consensus. Thanks, Celestra (talk) 15:59, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

Dear Celestra, I think presumed consenses is reached since no body objected. Can I upload the proposed content. Kwdt2 (talk) 11:44, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

I don't object to discussing this topic in principle. However, the references are woefully inadequate. I've reproduced the text, adding {{cn}} tags where needed. I've also struck out sensationalist statements or other editorial-type comments which are inappropriate for this article. --Rifleman 82 (talk) 05:25, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

Gold production is also associated with contribution to hazardous pollution . irrelevant commentSome of this ore is mined from deepest mines of the world. The ore generally containing less than one part per million (ppm) gold metal,^{[citation needed]} is ground and mixed with Sodium cyanide or mercury to react with gold in the ore for gold separation. Cyanide is highly poisonous chemical, which can kill living creatures when exposed in minute quantities. Many cyanide spills from gold mines have taken place worldwide both in developed and poor countries which killed the marine life in long stretch of effected rivers. Environmentalists consider these pollution disasters as major environmental disasters next to nuclear power plant disasters. When mercury is used in gold production, minute quantity of mercury compounds enter in to water bodies causing heavy metal contamination of water. Mercury enters in to food chain in the form of Methyl mercury through fish, etc. Mercury contamination in humans causes incurable severe retardation of brain functions.needs rephrasing^{[citation needed]} Thirty tons of used ore is dumped as waste for producing one finger ring of gold.^{[citation needed]} This ore dump is the source of many heavy metals such as cadmium, lead, zinc, copper, Arsenic, Selenium and mercury.^{[citation needed]} Water is unsuitable for human consumption if these Heavy metal (chemistry) are found in more than one ppm concentration.^{[citation needed]} When sulphide bearing minerals in these ore dumps are exposed to air and water, the sulphide transforms in to sulphuric acid which in turn dissolves the heavy metals facilitating their passage in to surface water and ground water. This process is called Acid mine drainage. Specific to gold mining, or general? The ore dumps of gold contain substantial quantity of heavy metals, which are prone to Acid mine drainage pollution. The gold ore dumps are considered as long term man made hazardous waste next only to nuclear waste dumps. Billions of dollars need to be spent to mitigate the heavy metals pollution from worldwide gold ore dumps which are increasing every year.^{[citation needed]} Gold extraction is also highly energy intensive industry (25 kwh of electricity per one gram of gold production) to extract ore from deep mines and to grind the large quantity of ore for further chemical extraction. ^{[citation needed]} In present day world, underground mining is least preferred employment by workmen as the occupational environment is not suitable for humans. Global gold demand mainly as an accumulation of movable asset, is fueling gold production which is associated with damage to world environment, ecology and forcing workers to unhygienic conditions. India is importing nearly 1000 tons of gold annually which is one third of global gold production. Not relevant

Regarding deactivating the template: At a minimum, materialscientist objected to the content, so there is no consensus. He said it has problems with poor sources, original research and undue weight (relative to the rest of the article). You need to reach a consensus with him and the other interested editors. Until you do so, please stop activating the template. Thanks, Celestra (talk) 23:09, 10 March 2012 (UTC)

Dear Rifleman and Celestra, Please find my substantiations against each of the remark. I hope adequate time and citations were given to explain that the observations (poor sources, original research and undue weight (relative to the rest of the article) are not applicable. I request Celestra or rifleman to expedite solution to this issue.

Gold production is also associated with contribution to hazardous pollution [1]. irrelevant commentSome of this ore is mined from deepest mines of the world. The ore generally containing less than one part per million (ppm) gold metal,[citation needed] (Clarification: please refer to subtitle ‘Production’ in wikipedia article Gold which states 0.5 ppm ore is used for gold production economically and also the paper earlier cited with title " Summit declaration of Peoples‘ Gold summit” ) is ground and mixed with Sodium cyanide or mercury to react with gold in the ore for gold separation. Cyanide is highly poisonous chemical, which can kill living creatures when exposed in minute quantities. Many cyanide spills[2] from gold mines have taken place worldwide both in developed and poor countries which killed the marine life in long stretch of effected rivers. Environmentalists consider these pollution disasters as major environmental disasters[3] next to nuclear power plant disasters[4]. When mercury is used in gold production, minute quantity of mercury compounds enter in to water bodies causing heavy metal contamination of water. Mercury enters in to food chain in the form of Methyl mercury through fish, etc. Mercury contamination in humans causes incurable severe retardation of brain functions. needs rephrasing[citation needed] (Clarification: Please refer to wikipedia article Methyl mercury for substantiating this statement). Thirty tons of used ore is dumped as waste for producing one finger ring of gold.[citation needed] (Clarification: Please refer to news article ‘the cost of gold – 30 tons an ounce http://www.nytimes.com/2005/10/24/international/24GOLD.html?pagewanted=all ).This ore dump is the source of many heavy metals such as cadmium, lead, zinc, copper, Arsenic, Selenium and mercury.[citation needed] (Clarification: Please refer to the paper earlier cited with title " Summit declaration of Peoples‘ Gold summit”). Water is unsuitable for human consumption if these Heavy metal (chemistry) are found in more than one ppm concentration.[citation needed] ] (Clarification: Please refer to wikipedia article Drinking water quality standards for substantiating this statement). When sulphide bearing minerals in these ore dumps are exposed to air and water, the sulphide transforms in to sulphuric acid which in turn dissolves the heavy metals facilitating their passage in to surface water and ground water. This process is called Acid mine drainage. Specific to gold mining, or general? (Clarification: yes and refer to subtitle ‘Occurrence’ of wikipedia article Gold which states that Gold ore is often found together with Sulphide minerals such as Fool’s gold which is a pyrite).The ore dumps of gold contain substantial quantity of heavy metals, which are prone to Acid mine drainage pollution. The gold ore dumps are considered as long term man made hazardous waste next only to nuclear waste dumps. Billions of dollars need to be spent to mitigate the heavy metals pollution from worldwide gold ore dumps which are increasing every year.[citation needed] (Clarification: Please refer to news article ‘the cost of gold – 30 tons an ounce http://www.nytimes.com/2005/10/24/international/24GOLD.html?pagewanted=all ).Gold extraction is also highly energy intensive industry (25 kwh of electricity per one gram of gold production) to extract ore from deep mines and to grind the large quantity of ore for further chemical extraction. [citation needed] (Clarification: Please refer to news paper ‘Using life cycle assessment to evaluate some environmental impacts of gold http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0959652612000947 ).In present day world, underground mining is least preferred employment by workmen as the occupational environment is not suitable for humans. Global gold demand mainly as an accumulation of movable asset, is fueling gold production which is associated with damage to world environment, ecology and forcing workers to unhygienic conditions. India is importing [5] nearly 1000 tons of gold annually which is one third of global gold production. Not relevant Kwdt2 (talk) 12:28, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

tl;dr. I'm not involved in this discussion. The {{edit semiprotected}} template is not a "I have another argument" flag. It is a mechanism for allowing non-autoconfirmed editors to make reasonable changes to semiprotected articles, using other editors as filters/proxies. Edits lacking consensus are not reasonable changes, but that is moot since you have been around long enough to be auto-confirmed. Please stop being disruptive and follow the usual conflict resolution paths. Thanks, Celestra (talk) 15:14, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

Counter argument to gold mining pollution talk

Gold Production

1. The production of gold requires the use of cyanidation, but not all of the processed ore requires this treatment. Gold mills first process crushed ore through a shaking table, which recovers most of the freely milling gold through simple gravity. Gold is a heavy element and will sink to the bottom.

Leaching in vats is required for gold chlorates trapped in minuscule particles of ore not separable by gravity or other methods. But processing mills also use other methods, such as concentrators, carbon leaching, and electro-winning. Cyanidation is only required under certain circumstances and is only one step in the process.

2. While gold processing mills require electrical power to process ore, gold mining projects with electrical infrastructure not dependant on diesel fuels do not further pollute the environment.

3. Not all mines operate at exceptionally low grades, either. Some mines can produce gold processing only 1 - 4 tonnes of ore, rather than the often quoted 30 tonnes. Some processing mills process 50,000 tonnes of ore per day and do not provide a return for their shareholders, while some processing mills require no more than 1000tpd to produce a return.

4. Most of the product from mines is silicon dioxide. Sand. Rocks are made of silicon dioxide. The by product of greatest concern is actually the Arsenic in the pyrites that often accompany gold mining operations. But arsenic by products that result from gold mines are actually used in the production of printed circuits, but you never hear of negative environmental impact from the production of printed circuit boards. Low sulphidation ores do not have Mercury in the rock and do not produce mercury as a by product of mining. They do not produce appreciable quantities of cuprous or cadmium elements common to sulphide ores.

5. Cyanide breaks down with 400 hours of UV radiation. Essentially tailings impoundment with dissolved cyanide products in water will see the cyanide break down with natural sunlight.

6. A responsible way to treat tailings would be to use a naturally-occurring lake with berms constructed and controllable water levels by means of a spill way along with effluent monitoring so that the outflow has no appreciable pollution. Above ground tailings impoundment with earthen berms leak or break.

7. Banning gold production based on specious arguments that its industrial output destroys the environment will be impossible. In a country of laws where publicly traded gold mines owned by shareholders follow the laws to the letter and satisfy every last astringent legal and environmental requirement and have the public support of both the indigenous stakeholders and no public opposition will enter into production and produce gold as part of the economy. Thus gold mines are not necessarily marginalized in any way, either environmentally, or economically, or scientifically.

8. A standard weight of gold will move to become a benchmark in the monetary system. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.116.243.211 (talk) 17:36, 14 April 2012 (UTC)