Pharyngula

Posted by: Katherine Lorraine, Chaton de la Mort | July 28, 2011 2:27 PM

Yay a new clean thread!

Posted by: triskelethecat | July 28, 2011 2:30 PM

@Jadehawk: I could pick you up from Albany on Friday; Syracuse is a bit far off for me. The only issue might be when Jules comes in, since we are hoping to come up together, but if she is in early enough, we can come get you in Albany and go back to Rhinebeck without any problems.

Posted by: Rey Fox, Bird Caller Guy | July 28, 2011 2:32 PM

Also: how is "whinge" pronounced?

Like "win" with a "j" on the end.

Posted by: Illuminata, féministes fin de jeu | July 28, 2011 2:33 PM

WHo is this Phil person and WTF is he on about?

Posted by: Illuminata, féministes fin de jeu | July 28, 2011 2:35 PM

but if you can come up to Albany sometime close-ish to 3pm, that would work

OMG. There are Pharyngulites gathering close to my neck of the woods and I DIDN"T KNOW ABOUT ITT!!!!!!!!

Posted by: Muse | July 28, 2011 2:37 PM

Illuminta - we're using Rhinebeck (big sheepie woolie) as an excuse to hang out with each other.

Posted by: theophontes (θεός γαμώτο) | July 28, 2011 2:38 PM

@ PZ

I think it's an anatomy lesson or something.

Naah, it is just the future of "normal".

Posted by: slignot | July 28, 2011 2:39 PM

So this weekend I'm planning on having a bunch of friends over for dinner, which is always a little tricky with this group because it mixes vegetarians (although they're ovo/lacto so it's not as hard as it could be) with those who are big fans of eating delicious animals. (We fall into the tasty animal category.)

We have a few things that we tend to cook because they're vegetarian and tasty, but I find that spouse and my approach to meal planning is very meat-centric. The vegetarian things we make and enjoy usually feel like more of a nice side than anything resembling a main dish. Making two versions of main dishes can be somewhat tricky, as well. Plus since we don't regularly cook meatless dishes for ourselves, things that people use to add protein like quinoa are outside our experience and comfort zone. Having a reputation among friends as good at cooking, I'm always afraid to try something like this and totally fuck it up because we don't know what we're doing.

This time I think we're going to go for a nice mix of stir fry options and noodles so people can serve and mix whatever as they choose. We've tried to add firm tofu into stir fry because we like it, but it has never turned out especially well. But we found an interesting method for preparing tofu to stir fry so it stays delicious and doesn't fall apart. Anybody here done anything similar or have other suggestions?

Posted by: Carlie of the lacy, gently wafting adjectives | July 28, 2011 2:42 PM

Jadehawk - I sent you and onion girl a message on fb - I might be able to do Friday night after we see what the costs will be, so I asked her to adjust my poll results accordingly.

Posted by: Rey Fox, Bird Caller Guy | July 28, 2011 2:47 PM

Oh man Fox News still confused about the moon

That's the trouble. Not only are they dumber* than we know, they're dumber than we CAN know.

* More venal?

Posted by: Brownian, Most Vicious & Petty of Pharyngulites | July 28, 2011 2:48 PM

Oh man Fox News still confused about the moon

What a fucking tool. I look forward to eating him when the Tribulations come.

Other than Christian apologetics, is there anything as strange as Japanese pop culture?

American pop culture to the Japanese?

Posted by: Algernon, elle sans chapeau | July 28, 2011 2:48 PM

Oof, it's the adult women acting like little girls that pains me.

Kyary Pamyu Pamyu really is a teen though, FWIW.

Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | July 28, 2011 2:50 PM

Bake in oven. Not sure why I chose roast there.

Posted by: Algernon, elle sans chapeau | July 28, 2011 2:51 PM

From last thread also:

I'm sorry you're feeling so down Weed Monkey :(

Posted by: Liriodendron, Latin macaronique sous le soleil | July 28, 2011 2:55 PM

Oh, shit. I'm bad at reading/writing/comprehension. That query should have been directed at MrFire.

Many apologies. I am really bad at names without faces to attach them to (well, even if there are faces, the names sometimes disappear). [e.g. Fox/Fire, Jadehawk/Jules, many nyms here confuse my brain, and it's something I try to work on.]

Posted by: Don | July 28, 2011 2:57 PM

slignot #16, linguini with pesto? It's vegetarian and awesome.

So...nobody going to explain the Japanese video to the people who don't get it?

Posted by: Brownian, Most Vicious & Petty of Pharyngulites | July 28, 2011 3:00 PM

Anybody here done anything similar or have other suggestions?

I cut them into strips and put them in the oil as soon as it's hot enough (it's hard to regulate temperature with electric stoves, so use a thick oil, like 5W-30). Then I don't touch 'em until they're firm on the bottom. Then, I flip them over, cover them with onions and garlic, and leave them again for a few minutes. Then, I stir up the whole mess, add any broth and water, and continue to throw in vegetables according to cooking time.

I'm by no means the best stirfry cook, but I don't suffer from crumbly tofu syndrome.

Posted by: Katherine Lorraine, Chaton de la Mort | July 28, 2011 3:02 PM

@Weed Monkey:

Thanks! I'm glad so many like my name. I think it's really pretty, myself.

Posted by: Weed Monkey | July 28, 2011 3:04 PM

Katherine Lorraine, I'd like to apologise for something I wrote last year. You were jokingly asking for European people to marry you, and I was insensitive enough to write something like "sorry, women only". What I meant was that here in Finland same sex marriages still aren't legal, but that was a really, really stupid way of saying it. )'m sorry about being such a jerk.

Posted by: Brother Ogvorbis, Emperor of Fire, Steam and Absurdity | July 28, 2011 3:06 PM

You have a book about plate tectonics?

Negative. It is Dawn of the Dinosaurs: Life in the Triassic. I'll take a quick look at home, I think I may have one of Dad's old geology books -- one is, specifically, about plate tectonics, but I'll be damned if I can remember name or author.

Posted by: Katherine Lorraine, Chaton de la Mort | July 28, 2011 3:11 PM

@Weed Monkey:

Oh, that's okay. I don't even remember it XD

Posted by: Don | July 28, 2011 3:12 PM

Turns out if you blanch the basil first, it doesn't turn black on the plate, which is a nice feature if company's over.

Blonde-wigged kids like these?

Posted by: Jadehawk, cascadeuse féministe | July 28, 2011 3:16 PM

ok, so apparently if i come to rhinebeck with carlie, i might still be able to show up on friday, so it looks like that works out anyway...

Posted by: Brownian, Most Vicious & Petty of Pharyngulites | July 28, 2011 3:23 PM

but what is the deep, meaningful message behind Kraft's macaroni and cheese?

Posted by: Tethys- zombi feministe calmar-garou. | July 28, 2011 3:25 PM

@Ogvorbis
You are a paleontologist?
If I knew how to make the tiny type I would be squeeeeeing and asking several dozens questions.

I have found very little information online about the geological time that am most interested in
which is pre-grenville orogeny.

Posted by: Walton, Marquis of Carabas | July 28, 2011 3:28 PM

This is just... wow.

(I am a cashier at a locally owned grocery store that is frequented by families. A dad comes in with two sons. The younger one puts a drink in the front of their order.)

Kid: “Don’t put this in a bag.”

Dad: “Hey! You could at least say ‘please’!”

Kid: “Dad, you don’t say ‘please’ to clerks, only to people! I learned it in my lesson yesterday!”

(From Not Always Right)

I think we've solved a mystery here. This must be what the Republicans mean when they talk about "raising taxes for the American people"... they're just assuming that the poor don't actually count as "people". :-/

Posted by: Illuminata, féministes fin de jeu | July 28, 2011 3:29 PM

by "this weekend" do you mean "this weekend" or "October 14-16th"?

LOL now I'M confused - I thought you were talking about this weekend.

It's in October? RIGHT AROUND MY BIRTHDAY!!?!?!?!!! When I'M ON VACATION?!?!?!?!

Its too good to be true!

Posted by: nigelTheBold, Minister of Spankings | July 28, 2011 3:32 PM

Okay, okay. I might have to get in on this trip.

Talk about being spoiled. I get to hang out with Katherine Lorraine in a couple of weeks. Then to see a bunch of other good folks a couple of months later?

That'd be just about perfect.

Posted by: SallyStrange, Spawn of Cthulhu | July 28, 2011 3:36 PM

Whoever linked to the Magnetic Fields song in the previous thread, THANKS! (I think it was Brownian?) I love the Magnetic Fields and hadn't thought of them in a while. Now I haz a happy.

Magnetic Fields Youtube mix

Posted by: Knative | July 28, 2011 3:44 PM

This is some very entertaining reading.

http://gawker.com/5825254/the-catholic-churchs-secret-gay-cabal

Posted by: Brownian, Most Vicious & Petty of Pharyngulites | July 28, 2011 3:52 PM

My mistake, Emilie. As soon as I hit 'post', it occurred to me that you'd mentioned being Canadian before.

Some crazy weather this summer, eh?

In semi-related news, we're branding ourselves as better than the alternative. Alykhan Velshi, the mind behind the message, was a former Conservative aide.

Posted by: Giliell, connaiseuse des choses bonnes | July 28, 2011 4:01 PM

New thread already?
And I never came to telling you aout how much I love Scandinavian trolls.
Nevermind, I'll tell you anyway, and here's a link to a wonderful artist who did gorgeous Troll Paintings

NAC MAC FEEGLE!

Only question now is why I should read it on a computer if I can read the paperback :)

Algernon:

However, Germans get real pleasure out of laughing at American women speaking terrible German. I learned that in Berlin and, honestly, if it brings them happy how can I help but oblige?

Jadehawk:

Jeus fuck, what is it with the European fuckwads coming out of the woodwork, pretending this is an American-only (in terms of relevance of issues and commentariat) blog!?

@Ing
What did you fancy? Something more, or something less complicated?

@Walton
Wait, it's "de Carabas", isn't it, in the original.

That's btw a good example of unconscious racism: I read the book, then I watched the series and was surprised that he was black. Then I read the book again and was mightily ashamed: My little white mind living in a little white world had simply ignored all the evidence for him being not-white...

@Slignot:
Pastries! You can make 2 or 3 of them depending on the number of guests and do a vegetarian and a meaty filling. A nice salad as a a side dish and everybody is happy. Scream if you want a Quiche Lorraine recipe.
Oh, and they're good to prepare so you can spend the evening with your guests instead of cooking.

Back to dialects from the previous TET:
I love my dialect, which has some funny similarities with English (though not related in that sense). It does get "softened§ over time, but I'm really trying to use our own "special" words, a lot of them being of French origin to keep them alive.
I find that languages resemble biological evolution to an extreme degree and can be used to ilustrate certain things very well.

Totally unrelated: I went rabbit-hunting today. Pünktchen escaped from their outdoor cage and we ended up with the other rabbit running in circles inside the cage, Pünktchen running around in circles outside, me chasing Pünktchen running behind and my dad missing the rabbit every time it ran between his legs....

Posted by: Dave, the Kwisatz Haderach | July 28, 2011 4:06 PM

What is this? I don't even..

Has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like?

Posted by: Phil_Giordana_FCD, aka Schroedinger's Dog | July 28, 2011 4:08 PM

Also, quite a few mistakes in the nyms with french words. I'll be glad to correct those who want me to.

For exemple: Giliell, it should be "connaisseuse des bonnes choses".

Posted by: Numad | July 28, 2011 4:14 PM

Phil_G,

Also, quite a few mistakes in the nyms with french words. I'll be glad to correct those who want me to.

My impression is that the whole french thing is at least partly meant to be a franglish demonstration of sorts, or else I'd have braved the risk of looking like a clueless pedant and offered some corrections myself.

Posted by: Brownian, Most Vicious & Petty of Pharyngulites | July 28, 2011 4:16 PM

Yeah, the whole misogyny thing is completely parallel with clueless white people thinking that because they've never personally burned a cross on someone's lawn, nor used the word "nigger," they are totally insulated from accusations of racism.

Except that Phil's totally cool with labelling uppity bitches like Rebecca Watson 'Twatson' for the lulz. That's how he weeds out the inferior women who don't realise it's all in fun.

And they'd better laugh too, if they want Phil to work for their equality.

Posted by: Dude... Real Men Watch Ponies! | July 28, 2011 4:18 PM

@Og
#19

Other than Christian apologetics, is there anything as strange as Japanese pop culture? From Hello, Kitty, to Speed Racer, manga to (can't remember) Moon, I am just completely unable to grok in any way, shape or form. But, then, I'm also so unhip that I'm amazed my legs don't fall off.

Also try South Korea, where Star Craft is an official national sport.

Posted by: slignot | July 28, 2011 4:19 PM

Don

Turns out if you blanch the basil first, it doesn't turn black on the plate, which is a nice feature if company's over.
Blonde-wigged kids like these?

As for those children, no, not nearly so naked or creepy. It was one of those things that really jumped out at me because it coincided with being stared at a lot because at the time I had very long (and blond) hair. I was also as tall as the family friend we were staying with and was 12. It was strange feeling like an oversized giant when I wasn't done growing.

Giliell

Pastries! You can make 2 or 3 of them depending on the number of guests and do a vegetarian and a meaty filling. A nice salad as a a side dish and everybody is happy. Scream if you want a Quiche Lorraine recipe.
Oh, and they're good to prepare so you can spend the evening with your guests instead of cooking.

I'd love the recipe! Post it here or email me. I have a gmail account with the same nym as here.

Posted by: Giliell, connaiseuse des choses bonnes | July 28, 2011 4:19 PM

@SallyStrange
Yep, see my own annecdote above

@Jadehawk

"'come up for coffee' doesn't mean 'let's fuck' in Europe"

Posted by: Phil_Giordana_FCD, aka Schroedinger's Dog | July 28, 2011 4:20 PM

Sally, I have no idea what this has to do with me. Is it because I use the words "cunt", "twat", "dick", "prick"? This is the internet, you know? Ever read 4chan or /b/?

I once used the word "cunt" over at Jerry Coynes' website, got criticized for it, and immediately apologized, because I trully didn't know it was a gender slur (cultural differences, I've brushed that before elsewhere). This whole EG mess blew in, I entered it calmly because it is a subject that really concerns me, but I ended up seeing so much bile flung from "your" side at people who came with calm and polite arguments, I started using those gender-specific terms again, because they always give rise to crazy rage. And sometimes, in a debate, anger and rage are useful.

Posted by: Don | July 28, 2011 4:22 PM

Well I for one was raised sexist and racist, and that makes me tend to be sexist and racist. Any white guy who says "I used to be racist|sexist but I got over it" is probably not as self-aware as he thinks he is.

I can actively work against racism and sexism (and have), but doesn't mean all my early training has been erased.

Posted by: Richard Austin | July 28, 2011 4:22 PM

Dude:

Hey now, Starcraft should be a sport everywhere. I would have loved to have gotten credit in HS for my carrier fleets.

Posted by: Jadehawk, cascadeuse féministe | July 28, 2011 4:23 PM

Which is funny since it's also not true. Unless he'd meant the moon (of Jupiter?).

I mean, I'll be the first to admit that I'm fucking sick of the USA and want to go home, but brainless anti-Americanism is still brainless, and denial about realities at home is still denial

Posted by: Algernon, elle sans chapeau | July 28, 2011 4:24 PM

Ever read 4chan or /b/?

Um... rule one?

Posted by: Jadehawk, cascadeuse féministe | July 28, 2011 4:27 PM

Ever read 4chan or /b/?

dumbest argument ever

Posted by: Jadehawk, cascadeuse féministe | July 28, 2011 4:29 PM

Any white guy who says "I used to be racist|sexist but I got over it" is probably not as self-aware as he thinks he is.

Posted by: Don | July 28, 2011 4:30 PM

"Don't feed the trolls" is really not part of the Pharyngula culture, is it?

Posted by: Algernon, elle sans chapeau | July 28, 2011 4:33 PM

Eh... I'd rather be corrected by one of the other French speakers that post here from time to time.

Posted by: nigelTheBold, Minister of Spankings | July 28, 2011 4:33 PM

Don:

"Don't feed the trolls" is really not part of the Pharyngula culture, is it?

If you feed them enough, they explode.

It's true.

Posted by: slignot | July 28, 2011 4:34 PM

So the self-appointed decency police harassing a business owner in Kaysville, UT has been front page news for two days now, apparently. I present a mini-copycat moment of mormon madness:

‘Racy’ mannequins moved, but lingerie display still upsets

The lingerie-clad mannequins have been removed from the boutique’s window, but it’s not certain if a new display showing bras and undergarments hanging on a clothesline will stop complaints.

Store owner Christy Allen said that although she figured that the shop would raise a few eyebrows, she was surprised at how at how much contention Pretty You Boutique has generated.

Residents in this Davis County community complained to city officials, saying mannequins dressed in bras and undergarments were too provocative and inappropriate for families passing by.

Allen has since moved the mannequins back from the window: Two of the models are now dressed in corsets and the third is wearing a full nightgown with shoulder-capped sleeves.

"I thought it would be more discrete if I put up a clothesline in the window, instead of the mannequins," said Allen. "I’ve been careful. There is nothing in my store that anyone can’t find in a department store."

Janalyn Holt, co-owner of Pepperbelly’s Restaurant two blocks north of the boutique, is disappointed in the new display.

"I feel that if she doesn’t achieve a healthy balance or try to make people comfortable with what she puts up in the window, it will be difficult for her to stay in business" said Holt. "Absolutely my children see underwear, but I don’t throw it on front lawn or ask the neighbors to go through it. It’s called intimate apparel for a reason."

Holt said citizens are concerned that families can see into the boutique window when they que up for a discount theater, located a few doors to the north on Main Street. She acknowledged that lines could form on the other side of the theater, but parking would make it inconvenient to do so.
"It is wise for any business owner to listen to citizens of the community," said Holt. They have an obligation to try to fit into that value system. I think the community is trying to tell [Allen], ‘We hope you succeed, but this is not what we want in our community.’ "

Holt, who helped found Women for Decency in 2003, suggested that Allen fill up the window with bright, colorful balloons, full pajamas and, perhaps, mannequins dressed in robes.

Allen said she doesn’t see the point.

"I sell bras," she said. "That’s what I sell."

Allen said she started the business because she believes women should have better selections of undergarments. A breast cancer survivor, she also sells bras for post-surgical wear.

The shop opened on July 5.

Allen, a major in the Army Reserve, returned from duty in Baghdad last year. She also served in Operation Desert Storm in the 1990s as part of a military coalition formed after Iraqi troops invaded Kuwait. Currently, Allen is part of a medical command based on Fort Douglas in Salt Lake City.

Posted by: SallyStrange, Spawn of Cthulhu | July 28, 2011 4:35 PM

This whole EG mess blew in, I entered it calmly because it is a subject that really concerns me, but I ended up seeing so much bile flung from "your" side at people who came with calm and polite arguments, I started using those gender-specific terms again, because they always give rise to crazy rage. And sometimes, in a debate, anger and rage are useful.

Basically you don't give a fuck about women or sexism but you think it's fun to be an asshole to women especially, and this gave you a good excuse.

But you're not a misogynist.

Tabarnac mais t'es con!

Posted by: slignot | July 28, 2011 4:36 PM

Oops, blockquote fail.

Posted by: Emilie | July 28, 2011 4:38 PM

"Don't feed the trolls" is really not part of the Pharyngula culture, is it?

My brain says "don't feed them", but my ever-hopeful heart sings "continue: maybe they'll choke on it"

I listen to my heart, câlisse.

Posted by: SallyStrange, Spawn of Cthulhu | July 28, 2011 4:39 PM

Basic societal etiquette asks that if you don't want me to use a word when adressing you, I won't use it. That's what I do.

This doesn't make any sense when juxtaposed against

This whole EG mess blew in, I entered it calmly because it is a subject that really concerns me, but I ended up seeing so much bile flung from "your" side at people who came with calm and polite arguments, I started using those gender-specific terms again, because they always give rise to crazy rage. And sometimes, in a debate, anger and rage are useful.

Cognitive dissonance much?

Posted by: pteryxx | July 28, 2011 4:39 PM

Heck, I'd call "I use sexist language to provoke a response" a formal admission of trolling, there. Especially coupled with "calm and polite" lies and misogyny. Just because you CAN polish a turd...

Posted by: Randomfactor | July 28, 2011 4:40 PM

As noted, the preferred solution, homicide, is illegal in most jurisdictions.

And the dead porcupines are on back order.

Posted by: Jadehawk, cascadeuse féministe | July 28, 2011 4:42 PM

Yeah, I noticed on that one thread they took off after only 900 posts or so.

Justicar for example left right quick, and is now infesting every place except this one.

Posted by: Richard Austin | July 28, 2011 4:43 PM

Besides, some trolls (granted, a very small percentage) actually de-troll-ify and become real people. It may be the 77th boot to the head that finally knocks something loose, but if we gave up at 76 we'd never have found out.

Posted by: Don | July 28, 2011 4:45 PM

Justicar for example left right quick, and is now infesting every place except this one.

Posted by: Moggie | July 28, 2011 4:45 PM

Algernon:

I just do. I would totally do the Harajuku look if I were 15 years younger and petite. However, even when I was that age my naturally stern features would have made it awkward and unflattering.
I could never pull off cute. Ever.
I'm just not... cute.

Wednesday Addams, is that you?

Posted by: nigelTheBold, Minister of Spankings | July 28, 2011 4:48 PM

I wonder if my boss realizes he's paying to to click "refresh" on pharyngula every ten seconds?

I get a lot done in the other 9 seconds, though.

Posted by: slignot | July 28, 2011 4:50 PM

@Giliell
Captain logic really doesn't have influence on any of the morality crusaders here in the wonderful state of Deseret. The tenor of public debate is always tinged with assholes like the "Women for Decency" or the much more influential Eagle Forum, which traces it's misogynistic advocacy back to opposing the Equal Rights Amendment.

Posted by: SallyStrange, Spawn of Cthulhu | July 28, 2011 4:50 PM

Allow me to offer some French correction...

Traduire ce que vous essuie petit cerveau du fond des autres peuples. Votre esprit est si mauvais qu'il attire des asticots. Maintenant, allez loin ou nous allons vous couper les testicules et les utiliser comme des castagnettes.

I'd say in this context, "tu" is probably more appropriate than "vous." Phil's not your boss or social superior, and you don't have any respect for him, right? Other than that, it's fine!

Actually that's not true. It's been a while, and it's a little unclear what your first sentence meant, but here's my approximation:

Traduiser le suivant: votre petit cerveau ressemble à papier toilette. Votre esprit est si pourri qu'il attire des asticots. Maintenant, allez-vous en, ou on va vous couper les testicules et les utiliser comme des castagnettes.

Posted by: Bjarne | July 28, 2011 4:52 PM

Jadehawk,

well, that's the point; none of that shit is true, but it's basically a prejudiced way of dismissing the issues. You know, a sort of "Americans are stupid, crazy barbarians; no need to take anything they say seriously, since it doesn't apply to us lovely, civilized people"

I mean, I'll be the first to admit that I'm fucking sick of the USA and want to go home, but brainless anti-Americanism is still brainless, and denial about realities at home is still denial
This anti-Americanism is just a form of racism as I see it. Unfortunately, it is one of the two forms of racism, which aren't only socially accepted these days, but even encouraged. It nicely directs the attention away, from our and our governments' own unethical behaviors.

Posted by: Silič O'Nopolitanopoulos, Färschdbischuf Beesknees aus Ulm und Klein Elguth, Elector Pharynguline. | July 28, 2011 4:53 PM

Well, except for gender.

And since I seem to recall Sili appreciating this link a couple of years ago, and since it's...

SC, reine d'ennui

A church in Ireland has likened the Irish 'prime minister' to Hitler for criticizing the Pope. The church has a website that has a guestbook people can sign.

I don't know what a house show is

basically, a house party with a live band; or conversely, a punk/rock/other alternative subgenre "show" in a house as opposed to a more public venue

Language, how the fuck does it work?
--o--

I'm having difficulty figuring out what "side" he's on. I may be wrong (it won't be the first time!) but I suspect it's the crappy one.

to add to Rey Fox, 'e's also invoking the "one woman = every other woman" fallacy in that comic. Note it's not HER using her experience to invalidate other women or not - Douche is kindly taking that step for her. Works for atoms, not s' much for actual people.

Discussion at other blogs has yielded a variety of interpretations, one of which is that it's a direct swipe at the ECO.

On top of what has already been said, even if this would be a RL situation, it would have little meaning. From my own experience I know, that you pretty much agree to everything for not scarring a costumer away.

--o--

I thought metal-heads *liked* trolls.

Apparently some prefer fairies.
who knew?Well, I'd like a twink, but I'm no metalhead.

--o--

Looking into an old Moment of Mormon Madness, we find that the witnesses who attested to seeing the gold plates Joe Smith said he dug up were deeply affected by woo. They signed a statement saying they saw the plates, but later Martin Harris explained that he didn't see the plates with his physical eyes, he saw them with his "spiritual eyes." Ditto for all witnesses concerned.

--o--

First, not all of us are men, so 'guys' is not correct.

--o--

(gah. I am become Ing. Time to quit now.)

There can be only one

Posted by: nigelTheBold, Minister of Spankings | July 28, 2011 4:56 PM

Brownian:

You can see why that takes precedence.

Well, yeah. He's male 'n' shit.

Precedence all the way down.

Posted by: Algernon, elle sans chapeau | July 28, 2011 4:59 PM

Wednesday Addams, is that you?

You kid, but my mother used to call me that as a nickname.

Posted by: MrFire | July 28, 2011 5:01 PM

Boy these threads sure get Phil'd up real quick

Posted by: Dhorvath, OM | July 28, 2011 5:01 PM

I am not Pugsley! Called it.

Posted by: Nerd of Redhead, OM | July 28, 2011 5:03 PM

but Phil is here to win a debate.

Posted by: Chaos Cryptic | July 28, 2011 5:04 PM

Cool, MY rapist didn't use any language at all, except for "shut up, you little fucker".

Posted by: SallyStrange, Spawn of Cthulhu | July 28, 2011 5:06 PM

Algernon - re cuteness

I've never been anything but. I've tried for glamorous, gorgeous, severe, sloppy, butch, etc. But it all comes out cute. Ugh.

Posted by: Brother Ogvorbis, Apropos of Nada | July 28, 2011 5:07 PM

You are a paleontologist?

Er, no. National Park Ranger, historian and interpreter. The one in the Smokey Bear hat leading the tour.

I did, long ago, want to be a palaeontologist. And I read every book, in the child and adult section, of the Flagstaff library. And every palaeontology book at the Grand Canyon school library. And some of the books I managed to get my Dad to scrounge from the park's library. And the more I read about dinosaurs, the more I realized that they were a useless evolutionary dead end, a sad commentary on the senescence of species. Their size, small brains, incredibly slow movement, all showed why they were overtaken by the might mammal. So I gave up on studying dinosaurs. And got hooked on history.

My degree is in Modern European History, so of course I work at a national park which preserves the history of steam railroading. Makes sense, right?

Back in, oh, about 1995, I picked up Bakker's book (Dinosaur Heresies) and realized that, had I been able to get hold of some books written after 1955, I would, most likely, have continued down the road to palaeontology.

I have recently (within the last three years) discovered dinosaur books written for adults. On my desk (at work (I read them at lunch or when in the fee collection booth)) I have Nicholas Fraser's Dawn of the Dinosaurs and Sues' and Fraser's Triassic Life on Land.

If you really want to squeee!!1!1, just ask some questions of Dr. Marjonovic' when he shows up. He's a real palaeontologist. And he's a doctor (though he doesn't play one on TV).

Posted by: SallyStrange, Spawn of Cthulhu | July 28, 2011 5:10 PM

Merci! Apparently google translate had some trouble with Monty Python into french.

Google translate has trouble with EVERYTHING.

I do hope the intent was clear?

Mais oui, ma chère!

Something like...

"Translate that your little brain is like toilet paper. Your mind is so rotten it attracts maggots. Now leave or we will cut off your testicles and use them as castanets."

Pro-tip: couilles = balls (testicles)

Posted by: Phil_Giordana_FCD, aka Schroedinger's Dog | July 28, 2011 5:12 PM

I'm not here to "win" anything, I'm here to discuss and debate.

Illuminata winces when she reads the words I write elsewhere? Sorry, that's life. I used to wince when earing the words that were uttered to me. In french, it was roughly "ferme ta gueule, petite merde. Enculé!". But I grew up and learned to use my grown-up pants.

If you people really want to not hurt anyone around here, just ban all profanities.

Sally: "What was the point of throwing that up there, seriously?"

What was the point of Illuminata throwing her rape in here? She was making a point, which is valid, and I fully understand. See, now that I know about her experience and the way she feels about it, I won't use these words again in a web venue she might read. Because I know how it can hurt. I got over it, she hasn't. Doesn't make her a lesser person in anyway, and with that bit of background information I would have refrained from using any of these words from the start.

But I can't for the love of Darwin know every story behind everyone on the internet. Neither can you, apparently.

Posted by: Bill Dauphin, avec fromage | July 28, 2011 5:14 PM

Jadehawk (@previous):

I'm 51, and the only actually accomplishment that I could point to proudly is my part in raising a child who is a better person (and will be better for the world) than I am. It's enough.

The next time I hear a middle class person with a degree and a halfway-decent career say this, I'm going to go on a stabbing spree (sorry bill; not specifically in response to you, but yours is the comment about this that I noticed)

I spent some time wondering why my comment bothered you, because it wasn't immediately obvious to me. I'm still not sure I understand, but I've thought of at least two possibilities:

1. Did you think I was denigrating my achievement in earning my degrees or in getting (and keeping) a decent job? Or perhaps that I was underestimating my good fortune in even having the opportunity to do those things?

2. Or did you think by "it's enough," I meant to be smugly saying "my work here is done: I raised a good kid, and that's all I really owe the world; I can stop worrying about working for change now."

Because I can see where either of those might make you feel stabby... but neither of those were what I meant. I was responding to several people, but most recently SallyStrange, who said "I'm XX years old and I haven't actually accomplished anything yet"... by which I took them to mean not that they haven't done anything at all they could be proud of (I'm mortally certain that's not true of SallyStrange, for just one example, just from stuff she's mentioned here), but that they didn't have any big, change-the-world accomplishments to point to; I was respoding in kind.

So yes, I'm very proud of my degrees and my career, and of the hard work I've done to get them. And I'm deeply mindful that those opportunities rest on both privilege and good fortune; I'm both grateful and humble in the face of the much tougher roads so many others have to travel. But I don't see those personal achievements as discharging my responsibility to make the world a better place.

I honestly do think my daughter will make the world a better place in ways exceeding anything I've done to date. Partly that's just generational: In my (admittedly narrow) experience, "the kids" really are "alright" on a whole range of social issues: I suspect part of the reason that the right wing is in such a frenzy of hatred and oppression at the moment is that they know that shit won't fly with the generation that's coming up. But I also have some hope that she personally will do some great thing to change the world — I can't guess what, but I know she has it in her. Mostly, I have to admit, my contribution to that has been simply not screwing her up... but more and more I'm learning that's no small thing.

But when I said, about that one accomplishment, that it was "enough," I only meant that it was enough to make me happy and proud. I don't imagine for a moment that it's enough to discharge my share of responsibility for the world we live in, nor my duty to try to make that world better myself. Hence my involvement in grass-roots politics: It's my small attempt to do my share.

If none of that really addresses your concerns, let's talk more: There's a chance I'll make it to the Rhinebeck gathering, and I'm pretty sure you'll find implements there that would be useful on a stabbing spree; I'd like to settle this before then! ;^)

Posted by: MrFire | July 28, 2011 5:15 PM

Liriodendron @30:

Yep! I'm in Boston. Or rather, in the suburbs.

Always up for saying howdy to a phellow Pharyngulite. If you like, feel free to send me a message on FB. I'm on the endless thread group there - hope my name is obvious enough.

Posted by: Phil_Giordana_FCD, aka Schroedinger's Dog | July 28, 2011 5:17 PM

CC @142:

"Sorry that happened to you. Truly. But if your rapist had used language to demean and shame you, and you were guaranteed to face that same shaming language every time you disagreed with someone, every time you turned someone down, every time you spoke, behaved, looked in a way someone else didn't like, wouldn't you get sick of it pretty fast? Wouldn't people saying "I know it probably has bad associations for you, which is why I'm using it to make you upset" come off pretty badly?"

Welcome to Pharyngula!

Posted by: mouthyb, ouvrier sur les connaissances | July 28, 2011 5:19 PM

Chime in on tofu cooking: you have to press the water from it first, which involves shrouding it in cheese cloth or paper towels and putting it between two hard surfaces, then stacking weights on it. Leave it there until the cloth is soaked (about an hour or so.) The resulting texture is like a hard cheese, and makes frying it a billion times easier.

It's good in General Tso's tofu and in Orange tofu.

On the question of language, as pretty much everyone has pointed out, it evokes a system. Part of the reason I avoid some of the fouler parts of my vocabulary is because when I start using the word, it makes behaving in the system of hierarchy much easier and more likely. Then I start thinking in the system (as if, for instance, I am better than someone else.) It gives the bullshit in the culture something to attach to, in me.

Posted by: 'Tis Himself, OM | July 28, 2011 5:21 PM

SallyStrange, Spawn of Cthulhu #144

I've tried for glamorous, gorgeous, severe, sloppy, butch, etc. But it all comes out cute.

At least you don't have to suffer with "You're, ah, um, er, distinguished looking."

Posted by: Algernon, elle sans chapeau | July 28, 2011 5:22 PM

Where is the empathy? Haven't they ever been repeatedly insulted and found it hurtful?

I think it goes like this. Other people's pain is not as important as mine. Not everyone cares about mine, so I refuse to care about anyone else's.

It reminds me of that song:

"I ain't never got nothin' from nobody, no time! And until I get somethin' from somebody, sometime,: I don't intend to do nothin' for nobody, no time!"

Posted by: Tethys- zombi feministe calmar-garou. | July 28, 2011 5:24 PM

@ Sally Strange

The first sentence should read: Translate this you tiny brained wiper of other peoples bottoms.

Otherwise it is perfect!

Posted by: Bjarne | July 28, 2011 5:25 PM

You obviously haven't met The Barmaid before.

Posted by: 朴競花/박경화 (Gyeong Hwa) | July 28, 2011 5:27 PM

Why are you advertising that you're an alcoholic.

Twas making a joke about how addicting StarCraft can be.

Posted by: Brownian, Most Vicious & Petty of Pharyngulites | July 28, 2011 5:27 PM

But I can't for the love of Darwin know every story behind everyone on the internet. Neither can you, apparently.

Oh, so you didn't know the words 'bitch', 'cunt', and 'twat' have been used to systematically demean women? Where did 'Rebecca Twatson' come from then? A lucky accident?

How about this?

"I started using those gender-specific terms again, because they always give rise to crazy rage."

You told used those gendered terms specifically for their power to inflame, and now you're feigning ignorance?

You're a lying, demented piece of shit, Phil.

Posted by: Forbidden Snowflake | July 28, 2011 5:29 PM

Is this

I'm not fat, I'm thick-skinned

Also, is "Girls Gone Wilde" a good name for a book club?

Posted by: Forbidden Snowflake | July 28, 2011 5:36 PM

Bjarne:

True. Is it a reappearing character of Jesus and Mo? I have to admit, that I've never followed the comic.

Posted by: Algernon, elle sans chapeau | July 28, 2011 5:37 PM

if you don't like people standing up for themselves and taking their own life in their hands, that's your right. I'm not asking anyone to do anything, I'm just sharing my experiences.

You just implied with those statements that you *do* consider a person who hasn't "grown up" and "toughened up" from abuse to be a "lesser person" which is probably why you have such a fucked up schismatic view of it being "good" to call women bitches when they're upset about being demeaned.

Clean up the mess in your head before you bother with anyone else's shit. You clearly have your own problems, and no one needs to be your therapy device.

Posted by: Jadehawk, cascadeuse féministe | July 28, 2011 5:38 PM

Jadehawk: if you don't like people standing up for themselves and taking their own life in their hands, that's your right. I'm not asking anyone to do anything, I'm just sharing my experiences.

yeah, not like anyone needed confirmation that when you said "it doesn't make her a lesser person", you didn't actually mean it.

Posted by: Jadehawk, cascadeuse féministe | July 28, 2011 5:41 PM

What gives you the right to diminish my experiences?

Posted by: Weed Monkey | July 28, 2011 5:42 PM

Forbidden Snowflake: it's not a beer belly, I just have them heavy stomachbones!

Posted by: Wildlifer, Zombi chasseur de tueur | July 28, 2011 5:43 PM

@146 Brother Ogvorbis,

Fellow ranger here ... of the resource variety. Unfortunately I'm having to resign to take care of mom (>1000 miles from duty station) effective Sept.

Posted by: SallyStrange, Spawn of Cthulhu | July 28, 2011 5:43 PM

Phil:

Using sexist language because you like getting a rise out of people is indistinguishable, to your targets, from using sexist language because you genuinely hate women.

If you can't be bothered to make the minimal amount of effort necessary to distinguish yourself from the woman-haters, then you have NO RIGHT to complain when you're lumped in with them.

Agreed? Or not?

Posted by: Phil_Giordana_FCD, aka Schroedinger's Dog | July 28, 2011 5:44 PM

Weed @175:

"Well, thank you for lying about your experiences.

Did you really expect your bullshit to be taken seriously after one fucking day of you spewing filth?"

Are you fucking kidding me???

Posted by: Chaos Cryptic | July 28, 2011 5:48 PM

Yeah, Weed Monkey - not cool. I know it's tempting but let's avoid low blows like that. I know Phil's been obnoxious, but people need to not feel like things they've said in the past will be held against them when they come forward with a rape experience. That goes for Phil and any onlookers.

Posted by: Brownian, Most Vicious & Petty of Pharyngulites | July 28, 2011 5:48 PM

I know better now, thanks to the few Pharyngula posts that weren't insults (once again, that's not a nasty jab or anything. You guys need to take a step back and look at yourselves. It looks crazy from the outside).

"I care deeply about sexism, but I refuse to learn anything about it unless people are completely calm and kind while explaining it to me."

Fuck right off, you demented, lying piece of shit.

Posted by: Nerd of Redhead, OM | July 28, 2011 5:49 PM

Reading is good. It really is.

Posted by: Dhorvath, OM | July 28, 2011 5:52 PM

'Tis,
I get imposing, broad, dense, or sometimes just huge. I would love to get distinguished.

Posted by: Tethys- zombi feministe calmar-garou. | July 28, 2011 5:55 PM

Phil just really can't get a clue. Luckily I have "gotten over' my social conditioning to be nice to assholes.

Posted by: Brownian, Most Vicious & Petty of Pharyngulites | July 28, 2011 5:57 PM

No, the connotation is already there. It's not a goddamn coincidence.

Indeed. He's trying to pretend it went down like this:

"Ha-ha, Rebecca Wattson!
What? You've got an irrational fear of SI units named after people? How was I supposed to know? Well, whatever the case, I'll certainly refrain from such casual metricism in the future!"

Because he's a demented, lying piece of shit.

Posted by: Bjarne | July 28, 2011 5:59 PM

Thanks for the explanation, Forbidden Snowflake :)

Posted by: =8)-DX | July 28, 2011 6:00 PM

All I can say is: One More Time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGBhQbmPwH8&ob;=av2e

Posted by: Chaos Cryptic | July 28, 2011 6:02 PM

There, you got it, you win (whatever it is that you win). For a bunch of white knights (and maidens) on your high horses, you have proved ridiculously obnoxious towards a victim of child rape.

Posted by: got.atheist | July 28, 2011 6:03 PM

Translation of the horribly-catchy song: http://hanjadream.wordpress.com/2011/07/21/ponponpon/

Posted by: Dhorvath, OM | July 28, 2011 6:05 PM

Phil,
I am sorry to hear about that, and doubly sorry that it came in the middle of me making light with other conversations that were also ongoing. My attention has been divided today and things which I should have caught were missed.

As for the drama you have brought to the thread, I really don't get you, it's why I haven't said much since yesterday. But right now, it looks like you might be getting somewhere, that's awesome. I really hope you meant what you said about avoiding gender insults, there is nothing that needs to be said via those avenues. If nothing is gained and something can be lost, why continue?

Posted by: Phil_Giordana_FCD, aka Schroedinger's Dog | July 28, 2011 6:08 PM

Weed Monkey: Ok, no problems there. I know how it is, reading comments fast. Happens to me all the time.

Jadehawk: I can't really say. General tone over here, maybe? But, and this is going to bring me a shitstorm, most answers I've gotten are WAY worse than whatever Richard Dawkins wrote about Rebecca (well, not really her but the heated comments the EG stuff summoned) in the first place. So why take offence with him and not with the Pharyngulites?

Posted by: Numad | July 28, 2011 6:13 PM

You people just need a "win"?

There, you got it, you win (whatever it is that you win).

Is it just me that finds that Phil_G's attitude toward readers here and his stated goals are surprisingly mutable from visit to visit? I mean, he went from very flippant about provoking people to... well, being shocked at other people's ruthlessness in the pursuit of a point.

I think I liked him better when he was affecting to find the "crowd" simply beneath his notice.

Posted by: Illuminata, féministes fin de jeu | July 28, 2011 6:14 PM

I'm not here to "win" anything, I'm here to discuss and debate.

A blatant lie, given what you said previously

Illuminata winces when she reads the words I write elsewhere? Sorry, that's life. I used to wince when earing the words that were uttered to me. In french, it was roughly "ferme ta gueule, petite merde. Enculé!". But I grew up and learned to use my grown-up pants.

So, in addition to deliberately using hate-speech for funsies, you now are insinuating that I'm childish and a whiner because your rape - which happened apparently years ago you're totally over - and mine, all of which happened just over two years ago, I'm not 100% over yet.

So, in addition to being a bitch slut cunt, I'm also a childish whiner. And, I apparently deserve to get triggered any and everywhere because hey, that's life.

What a lovely person you are.

See, now that I know about her experience and the way she feels about it, I won't use these words again in a web venue she might read.

But I can't for the love of Darwin know every story behind everyone on the internet. Neither can you, apparently.

That's the fucking point, genius. YOU DON'T KNOW. But you felt comfortable, manly and macho using hate speech. You know, cuz its fun to deliberately hurt people (and then whine about you're getting as good as you give).

And, I don't need your feigned concern and bullshit protection. I'm not a wilting violet collapsing into tears because some chickenshit troll uses hate speech. I brought it up in an attempt to get through to you what you're really doing, to get you to think.

Posted by: Chaos Cryptic | July 28, 2011 6:16 PM

And stupid troll cannot think in any other manner than win/lose.

He thinks that claiming to be raped (so very sorry for your trauma and I do mean that) makes the last two days of insulting, arrogant, infantile, behavior all better!! See, I was raped too? Can I be on your team now?

um no. Why would we want someone who constantly lies and is abusive when called on said lies?

General tone over here, maybe?

Posted by: mouthyb, ouvrier sur les connaissances | July 28, 2011 6:17 PM

Giordiana: You do know that mentions of rape are being used as illustrations, not as end-game strategies?

Posted by: crowepps | July 28, 2011 6:17 PM

Lyrics translated:

http://snsdlyrics.wordpress.com/2011/07/22/kyary-ponponpon/

Posted by: pteryxx | July 28, 2011 6:18 PM

@Phil Giordana:

Whether you were a victim or not, you are not entitled to victimize others in your turn. It's really that simple.

I hope that you eventually learn, for all our sakes.

Posted by: Brownian, Most Vicious & Petty of Pharyngulites | July 28, 2011 6:21 PM

most answers I've gotten are WAY worse than whatever Richard Dawkins wrote about Rebecca

Yeah, because they were to you, right? Owlmirror called it in #165.

You're nothing but a self-centred asshole.

The rape of a child is a terrible thing. Any rape is a terrible thing.

But you're still a fucking asshole.

Posted by: Rey Fox, Bird Caller Guy | July 28, 2011 6:22 PM

It's a little hard to accept apologies out of one side of your mouth while you continue to be combative and insulting out of the other side.

Posted by: Jadehawk, cascadeuse féministe | July 28, 2011 6:24 PM

*sigh*

we comparedtrivialized your discomfort at a situation that could have ended badly by comparing it to the discomfort of having to watch someone chewing gum?

Posted by: Phil_Giordana_FCD, aka Schroedinger's Dog | July 28, 2011 6:26 PM

Rey @228:

I am combative because I love debates. Some good things will come out. Some bad things too.

Illuminata: you do like to draw strawmen, don't you? Even when I'm saying sorry and trying to get a bit further in, you have to slap me down. Can you give it a break for a second, so I can gather my thoughts?

Posted by: Carlie of the lacy, gently wafting adjectives | July 28, 2011 6:27 PM

Phil, everyone who commented on your situation said they were sorry it happened to you. I noticed that no one at ERV has even given you that much consideration after you revealed it there.

Posted by: Jadehawk, cascadeuse féministe | July 28, 2011 6:29 PM

"Apologies, I was wrong and kind of a dick"

anyway, you do realize we're not "playing to win", right? the point is to either make someone understand the misogyny in their behavior in order to lessen misogyny in society as a whole, or leave permanently to minimize at least the level of misogyny on this blog. saying sorry if you're not going to do either is... not all that useful, really, if you're not actually going to stop the behavior you've just apologized for

and I'm not going to start an argument about "dick" now... I don't have the energy for that...

Posted by: slignot | July 28, 2011 6:31 PM

With regard to rape apologetics for child victims:

General tone over here, maybe?

But I feel like you don't entirely understand what we are talking about when we talk about the sort of tactics that make someone an apologist for rape. Otherwise you would not have angrily accused us of minimizing (again, with the noted exception of Weed Monkey who was repeatedly called on it and apologized) or apologizing for the abuse you suffered.

To do so would include (but not be limited to) actions or speech that:
1. implied that the abuse suffered was inconsequential or unimportant
2. normalizes the abuse suffered
3. implies or directly says that the victim did something to deserve, entice or want the abuse to take place
4. implies that the attack was the result of anything "natural" or unavoidable or miscommunicated rather than a rapist's conscious decision to violate another
5. imply that the victim's trauma is nothing difficult to recover from
6. encourage others to continue disparaging victims of rape and abuse
7. reduces victim or the class to which the victim belongs to nothing more than their sexuality, or implies that their sexuality is something to be won from them

Here we very strongly condemn those who would through deliberate or unintended action harm rape survivors in this way. I have not seen anyone here ever imply that childhood victims of rape in any way deserved their abuse or that their physical and emotional damage is anything other than grave. The overall tone here does not do this (please cite a counter example if I am wrong, I will happy admit to a mistake if so); the tone here is one that cares more for the substance behind an argument and it's validity than the level of calm or politeness with which it is delivered.

We are very serious about preventing damaging atmospheres that will prevent rape survivors from feeling safe. If you have a specific correction to suggest, please do so.

Posted by: Illuminata, féministes fin de jeu | July 28, 2011 6:36 PM

you do like to draw strawmen, don't you? Even when I'm saying sorry and trying to get a bit further in, you have to slap me down. Can you give it a break for a second, so I can gather my thoughts?

learn what strawman are before making yourself sound *so* stupid again.

it wasn't a sincere apology, since you insulted me in the very same paragraph, as i very clearly illustrated. And, I don't give a fuck either way, since I don't need your apologies and feigned empathy. i didn't bring it up to get you to pretend to apologize for it.

to make it very clear, here's why I brought it up:

James Brady is his name. james loved to use hate speech - against everyone. he esp loved using it on me after he'd coerce, badger and then finally force to fuck him. And when I finally got away, he broke two of my teeth with a nice swift punch to my jaw.

If you and he were in the same room right now, he'd think you're on his side.

So, ask yourself, can you live with that?

If so, go back to the bigot pit where you belong.

And, if the big bad blog moves too fast for you - sorry that's life. Go grab you big boys pants.

Posted by: Bill Dauphin, avec fromage | July 28, 2011 6:42 PM

Jadehawk:

well, it was point #1 actually, but I see you might have missed/forgotten the beginning of that conversation, which was Beatrice having a "25th birthday crisis" and people not understanding it. ...

Yah, I think I must have literally missed the beginning of the conversation: I've been doing a lot of skipping and skimming recently, owing to the sheer volume of posts here and an unusually busy stretch of time IRL. It makes posting at all a tiny bit risky, but I don't want to drop out altogether.

In any case...

So, seeing that conversation morph into fairly successful people complaining about not having accomplished anything was kind of upsetting.

...I'm very sorry I upset you. I didn't meant to be complaining — my life is good, and I'm grateful for that — but rather to be expressing a certain humility regarding my impact on the larger world.

Safe to come to Rhinebeck? ;^)

Posted by: pteryxx | July 28, 2011 6:43 PM

@Phil Giordana:

Really, I don't know what you people need.

You apologized to Illuminata, and were willing to stop using hurtful language at her, only AFTER she told her experience to you. Then, you revealed yours to us.

Did you expect that would automatically provoke sympathy and consideration, much less immediate forgiveness? Why? I intend the honest question. Why did you think that would work?

Speaking only for myself here: My consideration of you is based on many things you've done and said, because you were and are hurting others. What happened to YOU is a separate concern. I won't mock you for it, but I still will call you out for victimizing other people. You are responsible for your own actions. You're still responsible for everything you have said; and you will be held responsible for what you say from now on.

What will you now do?

Posted by: Silič O'Nopolitanopoulos, Färschdbischuf Beesknees aus Ulm und Klein Elguth, Elector Pharynguline. | July 28, 2011 6:45 PM

Melissa Harris-Perry still kicks arse.

I like how she asks "The Invisible Hand of The Market" to please tune out and go to its Happy Place if it happens to be watching.

Posted by: Algernon, elle sans chapeau | July 28, 2011 6:47 PM

Most people who behave abusively have been abused in their past. That's the norm for people who have been abused.

Now here's the real put your grown up pants on mooment: learning how NOT to behave that way, learning to be vulnerable again, learning to have compassion for others who suffer.

Work on that Phil. Work on that and come back if you like, but work on that all the same.

You're becoming the monster you hate, and it's sad.

Posted by: Caine, ghetto féministe | July 28, 2011 6:50 PM

Phil Giordana, you are far from the only person here who was raped as a child. I had that experience myself, and I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy. It's a terrible thing.

That said, I don't trust you, I have no reason to do so. From my perspective, you got irritated by people mentioning their assault experiences, so you decided to go with a triumphant throw down of "I can play that card too, watch your step with me!"

The way you're coming across is "it happened to me, no big deal, I got over it, what the fuck is your problem anyway, twatbitchcunt?"

For whatever reason, you're happy to try and play both sides of the fence here, leaning more toward the Slimepit side. You refuse to grok the context of institutionalized sexism and the harm it does, including the context of specific language.

Bottom line: you don't give a shit about anyone else or sexism in general, you don't care about how other people feel, only yourself (remember your rather insane tantrum over deranged). You don't like certain words when they're directed to you, however, you can call people whatever the fuck you like, because, well, ya know, it's funny.

You're a slimy, deranged piece of work who is not only a self-obsessed douchebag, you are so self-centered you just can't understand why everyone on the planet isn't in awe of you. I have news, Cupcake, you ain't all that. I'd never heard of you, and now, I still don't care about you. *shrug* I do not like you attempting to co-opt other peoples experiences and deciding to dismiss them, any more than I care for this sudden "I'm a victim too!" business. I won't call you a liar on that score, however, it has not changed my opinion of you in any way.

Posted by: Jadehawk, cascadeuse féministe | July 28, 2011 6:51 PM

If every time I use a gender slur it hurts a rape victim

Posted by: slignot | July 28, 2011 6:52 PM

Really, I don't know what you people need.

So if you really do care (and based on this, I still doubt that) I have a suggestion for you.

1. Lurk for a while (I suggest at least a week at this point after all the resentments built up over the last few days), both to cool off so you're not so defensive and to learn a bit about this community you want to engage
2. Hopefully learn to listen a little and consider if there are ramifications to what you say. Engage in a way that's not always just about you and what you think.

Posted by: Illuminata, féministes fin de jeu | July 28, 2011 7:01 PM

Classical Cipher - thx. I'm very used to both misogynistic douchebags focusing their bile on me AND to having dudes mock, belittle and insult me for what's happened to me.

But, in truth, it would take quite a bit more than such pedestrian stale hate speech to trigger me. ;)

Posted by: The Sailor | July 28, 2011 7:02 PM

Weed Monkey, I'm so sorry you feel so down, I wish there was something I could do to help.
+++++++++++++++
Phil, you have proved to be a dishonest person and I think you are making up stories just to pull heart strings of regulars here.

Posted by: Tethys- zombi feministe calmar-garou. | July 28, 2011 7:04 PM

If every time I use a gender slur it hurts a rape victim

You need to realize it is also hurting you. Rape culture is bad for humanity as a whole. Learn to recognize it and stop spreading it.

Posted by: Nerd of Redhead, OM | July 28, 2011 7:05 PM

Phil, go away for at least a week. Anything you say without going away for a while will be considered bullshit. You are receiving advice from an experienced regular. Now, you can listen to what I am saying, and come back without everybody prejudging you during your initial posts, or you can attempt to stay with the baggage you have accumulated to date. Take my advice and fade into the bandwidth for at least a week. See you mid-August.

Posted by: slignot | July 28, 2011 7:10 PM

@The Sailor
Look, you may have used "I think" instead of simply accusing Phil of lying, but you've done the same thing as Weed Monkey. Uncool.

Posted by: Caine, ghetto féministe | July 28, 2011 7:13 PM

New Futurama tonight, All the Presidents' Heads.

FDR's Head: "We have nothing to fear but running out of beer."

"Four more beers! Four more beers!"

Posted by: Illuminata, féministes fin de jeu | July 28, 2011 7:14 PM

you have proved to be a dishonest person and I think you are making up stories just to pull heart strings of regulars here.

It really could go either way.

on the one hand, since he mentioned it in a post only to completely dodge the point I was making, it could easily be that he hoped saying that would silence other posters.

on the other hand, it would take a seriously disturbed person to make something like that up and run with it under their real name (assuming that is his real name, I have no idea). It's not something people like to talk about. Were I posting under my real name, I def would not have mentioned it, since there almost none of my family or friends know about.

And, since my own standard is to accept what someone says happened to them in lieu of evidence to the contrary, I believe it.

Phil's backhandedly insulted me, implied that I'm lying, used hate speech - all that. But, he also relented and claims he's reconsidered. Who among us wasn't, at one point, an insufferable douche on one thing or another and came round.

I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt, despite the fact that he's given us absolutely no reason to. Though, I don't expect he'll actually stop doing any of it.

Posted by: sandiseattle | July 28, 2011 7:14 PM

Does #263 count as a flounce?

Posted by: Phil_Giordana_FCD, aka Schroedinger's Dog | July 28, 2011 7:15 PM

The pedophile was called Jean-Marie Olivari. I was 11 and young and stupid. I got fucked. Pictures were taken, they are still in the archives of the French police. Not very nice pictures.

Do I need to go and pull out a case file to be believed? I mean, for fuck's sake, I am posting under my real name. People will read this and ask questions. Why would I lie? Just to make a point on the internet?

Posted by: Illuminata, féministes fin de jeu | July 28, 2011 7:17 PM

so every time I call someone a twat, cunt, bitch, or whatever, I'm creating a rape culture in my community? I call bullshit. You may be able to make a case for correlation (I doubt it, but I'll concede it's possible), but for causation, you've got nothing. Also, you're a twat. And a cunt. And a bitch. And a hysterical harpy. Look, four people just got raped because of me... I'm a monster.

LOL. Do you have to practice being so incredibly stupid or does it just come naturally to you?

Posted by: Rey Fox, Bird Caller Guy | July 28, 2011 7:17 PM

Look, four people just got raped because of me... I'm a monster.

I can see we're going to have to get out the flash cards and puppets for this one.

Posted by: Illuminata, féministes fin de jeu | July 28, 2011 7:19 PM

Why would I lie? Just to make a point on the internet?

I put the same question to you, since you implied the very same thing about me.

Posted by: The Sailor | July 28, 2011 7:21 PM

slignot, I THINK he is lying, and Weed Monkey did nothing wrong given Phil's commenting history.

after hundreds of posts Phil played the 'abuse' card. I doubt his veracity. I do not think he's honest, I think he's working the room. YMMV.

Posted by: Nerd of Redhead, OM | July 28, 2011 7:23 PM

Why would I lie? Just to make a point on the internet?

Posted by: Part-Time Insomniac, Zombie Porcupine Nox Arcana Fan | July 28, 2011 7:25 PM

*pokes head in*

Yeah, I'll come back in a bit. Haven't caught up with all of the thread yet, so not really commenting for now.

Posted by: Phil_Giordana_FCD, aka Schroedinger's Dog | July 28, 2011 7:25 PM

Sailor: kindly take a spiny mammal and do what you know. Sideways.

Sure, I don't have anyone question me here, because it's my white male privilege.

Fuck off!

Posted by: slignot | July 28, 2011 7:25 PM

The Sailor,

I realize that Phil has been inflammatory, disingenuous and twisted what people have said to fit what he wants to say. I understand that it feels opportunistic. I am not super fond of the guy myself.

But the fact remains that if you question the rape allegations of people simply because they've been assholes or liars about other things, it makes it harder for any victims of rape and sexual abuse to come forward. That is bad and something we DO. NOT. NEED. HERE.

Don't do it please.

Stop it.

Posted by: Carlie of the lacy, gently wafting adjectives | July 28, 2011 7:27 PM

Bottom line: you don't give a shit about anyone else or sexism in general, you don't care about how other people feel, only yourself (remember your rather insane tantrum over deranged).

Phil has stated, here and elsewhere, that he was upset over that because his mother was put away due in no small part to testimony of his father, including the term deranged. I would submit, however, that it might have been due to a lot more than him simply calling her "deranged"; Phil said his father was a medical doctor, so I assume that held a lot of weight in what happened. I would doubt that she was institutionalized just because someone hurled a "she's deranged" at her, but because they had a lot more going for them in terms of how their word was accepted. Perhaps, in a small way, it had to do with women being expected to be hysterical and the word of men being taken for granted as testimony?

Phil, you've had a lot of pain. But you've dealt with it by becoming hard and anti-empathetic. You flew off the handle just by being called "deranged" because of your history; I assume you'd realize that some other people might have that same response to being called "cunt" because of theirs.

But besides individual responses, the big picture is what we're trying to look at, and what you haven't yet drawn back for. It's sexism in society that makes people a little more likely to believe your father's side of the story than your mother's because men are just more trustworthy and women are just more emotional and likely to be hysterical. It's sexism in society that makes a male victim of rape feel invisible because of course men don't get raped. That's what we're trying to fight against.

Posted by: Caine, ghetto féministe | July 28, 2011 7:29 PM

The Sailor - think what you want. Refrain from posting it. Shorter words: Shut Up.

Believe it or not, rape victims can be assholes too. It's not up to you to question their veracity in regard to their rape.

One more time: Shut Up.

Posted by: Chaos Cryptic | July 28, 2011 7:32 PM

I can see we're going to have to get out the flash cards and puppets for this one.

Posted by: Phil_Giordana_FCD, aka Schroedinger's Dog | July 28, 2011 7:34 PM

Carlie @290:

Thanks a lot. This is it.

Posted by: Caine, ghetto féministe | July 28, 2011 7:37 PM

Carlie, I'm not inclined to give Phil the same benefit of the doubt as you, at least not today. I spent years working as an advocate and counselor and I recognize certain turns of phrase, certain tactics and so on, which are inclining me to be more suspicious than empathetic at this point.

However, the last month and some days have not been easy on me, and I'm not feeling terribly patient or open at the moment.

This would be a good time to sign off, I think, so I'm out. Have fun with poor ol' Phil.

Posted by: Tethys- zombi feministe calmar-garou. | July 28, 2011 7:38 PM

Thank you PZ!

Posted by: slignot | July 28, 2011 7:42 PM

Okay, I'm getting frustrated, so I'm throwing in the towel for a while.

I can't argue again why we shouldn't condemn someone who has come out as a rape survivor in a public forum like this. As Caine suggested, think whatever you want, but keep it to your fucking self.

Posted by: broboxley OT | July 28, 2011 7:45 PM

rystefn #265 last thread I tried to engage you, obvious waste of time.
So you have chuck, bundy et al on one side, you employ the language of their thoughts and then want to be considered one of the good guys, and wonder why people around here get pissed at you.

So you are just another primate who thinks that flinging lots of poo, beating with sticks and having sex with who you want without consequences whether the mountee wants to be mounted or not.

We see that and acknowledge that we understand that is how you think.

So keep jumping up and down shrieking negativity
while the humans watch and take notes.

Posted by: Chaos Cryptic | July 28, 2011 7:45 PM

Sailor, you may think that about Phil, but even if you do, it's really important that you not say that kind of thing. Rape victims are very much used to not being believed, because everyone and everything in our culture tells us we won't be. Even if you don't particularly care how Phil himself might respond to it, you should consider anyone who might read and take your response to mean that their past behavior will allow their traumatic experiences to be disbelieved and dismissed even by people who care about the issue of rape. Especially given the inherent stigma and erasing associated with male rape, it's really just not worth it to take that risk. As others have pointed out, being a victim and being an asshole aren't mutually exclusive.

Posted by: David Marjanović | July 28, 2011 7:48 PM

The good news: I spent all day submitting my grant proposal for Berlin! Endless printing (3 of my publications, each in triplicate...) and stuff, and then carrying it to one of the few remaining post offices, but now it's sent!!! About a year later than I should have, due to confusion and miscommunication on several ends.

The bad news: the topic turns to Rhinebeck while I have no hope of catching up!!!

I'm very happy to learn that Illuminata and Jadehawk are coming...

I've caught up with this subthread, but not the previous two or three.

I find that languages resemble biological evolution to an extreme degree and can be used to ilustrate certain things very well.

This goes all the way back to the Origin... I mean Darwin's book.

It's amazing how extreme the degree of similarity is sometimes. For instance, both had Stalinist perversions: Lysenkoism for biology, Marrism for linguistics! Scientists were sent to Siberia for disagreeing with either.

You are a paleontologist?
If I knew how to make the tiny type I would be squeeeeeing and asking several dozens questions.

*jumping up & down* Meee! Meee!

I have found very little information online about the geological time that am most interested in, which is pre-grenville orogeny.

There simply isn't much information on that time, online or elsewhere.

Its supposed to be a joke in franglish, and those who are bothered by the grammatical incorrectness can always ask David Marjanović to fix it for them.

I didn't know it was a joke. :-]

Which is funny since it's also not true. Unless he'd meant the moon (of Jupiter?).

The moon (yes, of Jupiter) is actually called Europa in English.

your evidence for something beink ok to use is that /b/tards use it?
dumbest argument ever

I concur.

Language, how the fuck does it work?

Time flies like an arrow.
Fruit flies like a banana.

Sorry. I had to do it, and you know that full well.

It's not settled completely yet, but some demographics use "guys" as ungendered.

Yep. For some Americans, "you guys" is simply the plural of "you"; I've witnessed a female postdoc use it to address a room full of professors of both genders.

Boy these threads sure get Phil'd up real quick

Last 3 subthreads won.

Algernon - re cuteness

I've never been anything but. I've tried for glamorous, gorgeous, severe, sloppy, butch, etc. But it all comes out cute. Ugh.

My sympathies – based on your (Internet) personality, I'd never have guessed.

If you people really want to not hurt anyone around here, just ban all profanities.

:-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D

"Right. When you will be only a little older, you will doubtless learn to mind your own business. If you will be so good as to turn your head slightly to the left, you will see the door. I wish you good-afternoon."
– a main character in a book by W. Somerset Maugham

also, in terms of personal li[f]e-experiences, I really feel like I've missed out on a lot.

*blink*

I used to think you had more of those than you actually liked.

Phlébotome! Hydrocarbure! Invertébré! Logarithme!

/Capitaine Haddock

ORNITHOLOGUES !

(Yes. Honestly.)

Posted by: Phil_Giordana_FCD, aka Schroedinger's Dog | July 28, 2011 7:52 PM

Carlie: no, there was no sarcasm there. It was a genuine "thank you". Got tears out of me, too. Metalheads, hey?

Posted by: Illuminata, féministes fin de jeu | July 28, 2011 7:53 PM

Especially given the inherent stigma and erasing associated with male rape, it's really just not worth it to take that risk.

Exactly!!! that's the absolute truth. If he is a liar, you won't ever know that and all you've done is further spread the cancer of silencing rape victims who are not Phil. And, if you're wrong, all you've done is spread the cancer of silencing rape victims.

There's no winning there.

And Phil, back the fuck down from Caine. Might I remind you that you don't know her backstory. Back the fuck down.

Posted by: Kamaka | July 28, 2011 7:56 PM

Oy, this Phil guy is a bad piece of work. Let's talk about something else.

@ Tethys the Zombie*

Your enthusiasm for geology expressed waaay upstream obliges me to recommend a great geology book Geology of the Lake Superior Region.

The author, Gene L. LaBerge, must be an awesome teacher...he drags you through the fundamentals of complex geologic processes without breaking your brain.

I've read a ton of geology books, this one wins.

*Are you really a zombie?

Posted by: pteryxx | July 28, 2011 7:58 PM

For y'all's consideration. This comment is from two editions of TET ago:

#171 Posted by: Caine, ghetto féministe Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 10:05 PM

John:

Perhaps Abbie is striving to demonstrate just how little sexism/misogyny bothers her.

That's part of it, or at least it was, earlier. Much earlier in that thread, she brought up her feelings in regard to a personal assault experience while yelling at PZ for not discussing it privately with her.

I said at the time I wouldn't fault her on that score (and I still won't), because I've seen other victims react the way she has, it's where someone deals with their experience by going straight through to the other side, so to speak. It's not an uncommon reaction.

Link to source comment

Posted by: Chaos Cryptic | July 28, 2011 8:03 PM

Oh - and Phil - in case what I said above could be misconstrued - I just want you to know that I do believe you. I'm not just saying that to make a point or advance a cause. If I didn't believe you, I would be keeping it to myself, but I would make a point of not engaging with you. It's just that being a victim does not make it okay to contribute to the victimization of others, and that was what you were doing. I see PZ's asked you to take a break to avoid banning, and so have several others. I hope you take him up on that, and I hope you get more of this stuff figured out before you come back. For everyone's sake.

Posted by: Tethys- zombi feministe calmar-garou. | July 28, 2011 8:08 PM

Ok, now I'm just feeling all warm and fuzzy.

That last troll got banned while I took a break, and David Marjanovic came in. *wave*

Phil is going to go have a good long think. (hope)

And PZ, again, THANK YOU!!!!!!

Now to try and write coherent questions for David M.

Posted by: Illuminata, féministes fin de jeu | July 28, 2011 8:11 PM

I'm very happy to learn that Illuminata and Jadehawk are coming...

If I can, i def will. (that is, if it isn't waaaaaay to late to get in. damn knitters are everywhere!). My birthday is that week and I'm already on vacation from work.

If i do, I'll have to bring some business cards. LOL.

Posted by: John Morales | July 28, 2011 8:13 PM

CC,

Sailor, you may think that about Phil, but even if you do, it's really important that you not say that kind of thing. Rape victims are very much used to not being believed, because everyone and everything in our culture tells us we won't be.

I endorse this unreservedly.

(Sometimes, it's better to err on the side of charity)

Posted by: sandiseattle | July 28, 2011 8:18 PM

Geology, anyone?

Yeah, let's rock!
:-P

Posted by: Chaos Cryptic | July 28, 2011 8:22 PM

I carry something similar - not the same, obviously - and I have to put myself together, every morning, as if I were a jigsaw puzzle and not a person.

*jumping up & down* Meee! Meee!

Geology, anyone?

Posted by: Phil_Giordana_FCD, aka Schroedinger's Dog | July 28, 2011 8:24 PM

PZ: or instead, you could calm the fuck down and, you know, talk with people? You are an educator, a great one, it seems. Why not just try that? As I've showed here, I am more than ready to listen. You are getting a bit too personal, methink.

Posted by: Phil_Giordana_FCD, aka Schroedinger's Dog | July 28, 2011 8:26 PM

Also, call me Phil, or SD, or FLD, or whatever. "Giordana" is my father. Never was a nice guy.

Thanks.

Posted by: nigelTheBold, Minister of Spankings | July 28, 2011 8:28 PM

Phil_Giordana_FCD:

But I grew up and learned to use my grown-up pants.

Ah, yes. The pants that encourage you to call other people demeaning names (that are essentially demeaning based on their association with gender, I note), and essentially ignore the pain other people endure.

Those pants.

Seems to be a popular brand.

Posted by: Tethys- zombi feministe calmar-garou. | July 28, 2011 8:30 PM

@Kamaka

Thank you the recommendation. I am constantly awed by the ancient age of the Earth. I've collected many of the minerals mentioned including a nice sample of Mary Ellen Jasper.( A 2.1 billion year old fossilied stromatolite.)

Posted by: pteryxx | July 28, 2011 8:32 PM

----------
Disclaimer: This is SERIOUSLY my own two cents here and I cannot tell anyone what to believe, I know that. This is solely my opinion.

I'm no counselor nor expert. I'm strange and I have a weird view of truth. To me, it doesn't matter if Phil's telling the truth or not. What difference could it make? Was he any less of an asshole 24 hours ago? If, in a day or a week, he should change his story, how would that reflect badly on ANY of us except him? If we turn out to be fooled and the Slimepit laughs, it's going to hurt, but it wouldn't make US bad people for believing him. I think it doesn't matter what I believe; but I will not accuse him of lying. I won't go there. That's all I have to say on the matter.
--------

*nod* Phil it is. You're still going to deserve what you get for baiting the blog owner, you realize. Sheesh.

Posted by: Caine, ghetto féministe | July 28, 2011 8:33 PM

Nigel:

Those pants.

Seems to be a popular brand.

Indeed. I, for one, am rather sick of having them waved in my face.

Posted by: triskelethecat | July 28, 2011 8:34 PM

Well, I've killfiled Phil because he was just pushing too many of my buttons and gotten all confused about Rhinebeck.

Jadehawk: email me if you still need to get to Albany for a ride. If you've worked things out with Carlie, let me know. Jules is figuring out flights but may not be in until Friday night which would be fine if she flies into Albany and not so fine if she flies into NYC or Newark.

Can't wait till October, especially with more people coming!

Posted by: Illuminata, féministes fin de jeu | July 28, 2011 8:38 PM

pteryxx @ 340 - run that up the flag pole and I'll salute it. 100% agreed.

And, honestly, the slime pit means nothing to me. If he's lying and it's all a game of gotcha, it does nothing but further prove the general opinion of them. I'm not a bigot, therefore, i don't truck with bigots. they're bigots. Who gives a fuck about them.

On the other hand, if he is telling the truth and is shut down here - where, otherwise, that would never be tolerated - than how are we any different from the slime pit?

Posted by: David Marjanović | July 28, 2011 8:38 PM

Forgot to mention that I'm particularly happy that Jadehawk won't be a day late this time. :-]

People will read this and ask questions. Why would I lie? Just to make a point on the internet?

...look... I believe you... just... I must break it to you that lots of people have lied just to make a point on the Internet. Some of them have done so on this very blog, right in cyber-front of our noses.

LOL. Do you have to practice being so incredibly stupid or does it just come naturally to you?

I think he worked pretty hard to actively not get it.

You were not stupid. It was not your fault.

QFT!

Ok, now I'm just feeling all warm and fuzzy.

That last troll got banned while I took a break, and David Marjanovic came in. *wave*

:-}

If i do, I'll have to bring some business cards. LOL.

I've actually wondered if I should print nametags... how many Pharyngulites are supposed to come so far?

I have to put myself together, every morning, as if I were a jigsaw puzzle and not a person.

...

:-S

*chocolate*

^_^ Daviiiiiiiiiiiiiid... *giant hug*

~:-}

PZ: or instead, you could calm the fuck down and, you know, talk with people? You are an educator, a great one, it seems. Why not just try that? As I've showed here, I am more than ready to listen. You are getting a bit too personal, methink[s].

And that's what you say after provoking the fastest two subthreads ever?

Have you got a mirror at home?

Posted by: pteryxx | July 28, 2011 8:40 PM

Caine, seconding what John Morales just said. I haven't said much about myself yet but I admire you also, and I am trying to use your example as a guide.

Posted by: Caine, ghetto féministe | July 28, 2011 8:41 PM

John:

I take this opportunity to state how much I admire your attitude (a whole fucking lot).

Thank you very much. I won't say it didn't take me a long time to accept things, it did. No point spending a whole lifetime steeping in unhappiness, though.

Posted by: coffeycake | July 28, 2011 8:44 PM

Caine:

I'm glad to hear you're content with your puzzle. I'm doing well with my puzzle as it is now. This puzzle's got a wonderful, understanding fiance; two adorable, insane cats; and a well-loved, constantly-messy apartment. My long-term abuse only ended fairly recently (a year and a half ago, to be precise), but I think I'm doing well, all things considering.

I'm trying to make the best of my life. I wonder who I might have been, sometimes, too, and I'm still limping and hobbling along, but now I can accept when I need to use crutches and I can teach others how to use them (literally and figuratively). Without the abuse, I'd probably still with the guy who caused the abuse. I am happy now, with things as they are. I can imagine living other ways, with other people, but I just don't want to. :-)

Posted by: pteryxx | July 28, 2011 8:45 PM

*feral grin* Ah, but now I call you just Phil.

-----

Tangential but rather splendidly timed, the latest blogpost from NSWATM:

https://noseriouslywhatabouttehmenz.wordpress.com/2011/07/28/emotions-threat-or-menace/

The furious vengeance, of course, is driven by the one emotion men are required to have: anger. Anger is manly, it’s motivation, it’s what a Real Man is supposed to feel, especially if someone has touched his stuff. (For “stuff” read “women”.) In many, many situations, lack of sufficient anger is evidence of failure to perform masculinity. Don’t think anger is the healthiest emotional response to a situation? Tough shit, penis-boy, it’s what you’re allowed.

Posted by: David Marjanović | July 28, 2011 8:46 PM

Heh. And I'm tired enough already that I forgot to ask Classical Cipher if she's going to come to Rhinebeck. X-) Well, it is 2:45 am over here.

run that up the flag pole and I'll salute it

I'll try to steal this. :-)

Posted by: coffeycake | July 28, 2011 8:49 PM

David:

For the thoughtful gift of offering me internet chocolate, you are my new favorite internet friend. :-D

Seriously. Chocolate is my freaking FAVORITE, and I don't care that it's stereotypical. It's CHOCOLATE. On the INTERNET.

Thank you. *internet hug*

Posted by: Carlie of the lacy, gently wafting adjectives | July 28, 2011 8:50 PM

Well, I was a day late and a dollar short on that one.

In other news entirely, anyone who owns a Nintendo 3DS needs to log onto the online store before Aug. 11. The good news is that it's because you'll get 20 free games. The bad news is that the free games are to placate you for the fact that the price is dropping to $170 on August 12. Apparently all you have to do is log on, and it will register you and your 3ds as having existed prior to the price drop, making you eligible for the freebies when they're released later this year. source

Posted by: Illuminata, féministes fin de jeu | July 28, 2011 8:52 PM

I'll try to steal this. :-)

LOL It's a Red Dwarf quote (slightly paraphrased). Talk to Grant & Naylor. ;)

Posted by: Benjamin "pardon my French" Geiger | July 28, 2011 8:53 PM

Bah. My mother just posted thisphototo her Facebook wall.

Posted by: Brother Ogvorbis, Emperor of Fire, Steam and Absurdity | July 28, 2011 8:55 PM

is one of the bestest places on rocky Earth.

Which tells me that I really, really, really need to get to da YouPee (preferably with a geology text). My favourite rock places are still Death Valley and Grand Canyon (having a geologist dad, and living there, and listening to running geology lectures, may have coloured my view, though). The badlands of the upper midwest are pretty awesome, too. And if you ever find yourself in Western Maryland, the road cut just west of Hancock is mind-blowing.

Posted by: Chaos Cryptic | July 28, 2011 8:56 PM

...But thanks for asking! ^_^ I was so sad when I found out I'd be missing out on meeting you there, David. I am absolutely determined to make it to one of these gatherings.

Posted by: pteryxx | July 28, 2011 8:59 PM

@Carlie: Heh, I found the swipe rather endearing... furious vengeance and all that. He could very easily read my statement as "I don't believe you" and that's his right. Given how he's acted for the last however many days it's been, what's he going to do, thank me? ; >

Posted by: Ms. Daisy Cutter, Vile Creature Powered Entirely By Bitter | July 28, 2011 9:04 PM

GAH!!

This is what I had to say about it.

Posted by: Dhorvath, OM | July 28, 2011 9:07 PM

pteryxx,
From your quoted text:
"The furious vengeance, of course, is driven by the one emotion men are required to have: anger. Anger is manly, it’s motivation, it’s what a Real Man is supposed to feel, especially if someone has touched his stuff. (For “stuff” read “women”.) In many, many situations, lack of sufficient anger is evidence of failure to perform masculinity. Don’t think anger is the healthiest emotional response to a situation? Tough shit, penis-boy, it’s what you’re allowed."
I hate raw anger, whether in myself or others. It's a destructive emotion that does, at least in my experience, very little of worth. I do think outrage has a place, but it's a different emotion as I see things.
___

To those with puzzles my admiration grows every time another one of these people drag you through this shit again. Thank you for sharing with us and showing me how much a person can be.

Posted by: Caine, ghetto féministe | July 28, 2011 9:10 PM

Weed Monkey, thank you.

Coffeycake:

I'm glad to hear you're content with your puzzle. I'm doing well with my puzzle as it is now. This puzzle's got a wonderful, understanding fiance; two adorable, insane cats; and a well-loved, constantly-messy apartment. My long-term abuse only ended fairly recently (a year and a half ago, to be precise), but I think I'm doing well, all things considering.

I'm trying to make the best of my life. I wonder who I might have been, sometimes, too, and I'm still limping and hobbling along, but now I can accept when I need to use crutches and I can teach others how to use them (literally and figuratively).

You're doing incredibly well for only being a year and a half out, much, much better than I was at that point. It took me a very long time. I think you are simply amazing and you will have a great life and help a whole lot of people along the way.

Ogvorbis:

Right now, Splinter and Rizzo (Girl's rats (who are living in the living room while she is at the beach with Boyfriend, his mom and his sister)) are eating miniature bagels (Ecotrition Bagel Minis, to be exact) and are so freakin' cute!

Oh, sweethearts! Chas and Alfie are off sleeping right now. Their latest addiction is to chocolate Ensure. They like it even more than tea! Little heretics.

Posted by: Benjamin "pardon my French" Geiger | July 28, 2011 9:12 PM

(considers snarking about how "bitches are much, much more awesome than shit", but decides against it)

Posted by: pteryxx | July 28, 2011 9:13 PM

Strangely appropriate song:

30 Seconds to Mars - Kings And Queens (untested youtube link)

Into your eyes

Hopeless and taken

We stole our new lives

Through blood and pain

In defense of our dreams

In defense of our dreams

Posted by: Dhorvath, OM | July 28, 2011 9:15 PM

Ms Daisy Cutter,
What the shit? How is that even sense? I am no gentleman, nor does a lady hold a particular fascination for me. Be who you are, I will try to do the same, and let's see where that leaves us. If there is friction, good, I don't want jolly agreement purchased on oppression.

Posted by: Caine, ghetto féministe | July 28, 2011 9:19 PM

Ms. Daisy Cutter:

GAH!

:sigh:

'Tis:

So let's all take a vacation from fighting the MRAs, at least for a few days. Okay?

I'll do my best.

Posted by: Ms. Daisy Cutter, Vile Creature Powered Entirely By Bitter | July 28, 2011 9:23 PM

Maintenant, allez loin ou nous allons vous couper les testicules et les utiliser comme des castagnettes.

Posted by: drbunsen_le_savant_fous#d3872 | July 28, 2011 9:23 PM

Caine, I'll join in the admiration chorus :)

Posted by: 'Tis Himself, OM | July 28, 2011 9:26 PM

Caine, I'll join in the admiration chorus :)

Yeah, what everyone else said.

Posted by: Kamaka | July 28, 2011 9:30 PM

@ Tethys

Brockway Mountain Drive could easily be your new *favorite* place. Justy barely better than the St. Croix valley, but better.

You still haven't answered the question!!

Are you really a zombie?

Posted by: Caine, ghetto féministe | July 28, 2011 9:32 PM

Tethys:

My full title is Tethys, the zombie feminist weresquid.

I have to tell you, I am absolutely in love with the idea of weresquid. Brilliant.

Posted by: John Morales | July 28, 2011 9:32 PM

¿por qué hablamos otras lenguas?

Posted by: pteryxx | July 28, 2011 9:33 PM

re Jadehawk: IMHO, it'd be a frickin' miracle if Phil or anyone could come to that large a realization that fast. Every time one of my denial-walls comes down, it takes at least three days before it shows up in my thinking.

re what Dhorvath said about anger: I'm new enough to all this BS that I'm still learning to even SEE the gender policing. I notice, for instance, that even though I was more or less taking Phil's side just now, I offered no sympathy, only stark honesty. (In contrast to Classical Cipher and Carlie, for example, who were directly supportive.) I wonder if that was me responding in a Manly-Man way, and if it made any difference... was he responding to me and to PZ all of a sudden?

But I was also angry, which manifested as ten-foot-thick emotional armor. ...I may have to work on that. I've only been at this for a couple years.

There's a book called "Denial" by Jessica Stern, the counter-terrorism expert known for her cold-blooded courage... but she says it was PTSD due to her rape in childhood that allowed her to shut down her emotions when there should have been fear. I really wonder how much Manly Rage might be attributed to past abuse.

Posted by: Dhorvath, OM | July 28, 2011 9:34 PM

Ah shit Benjamin, I am crying now. That was harsh.

Posted by: drbunsen_le_savant_fous#d3872 | July 28, 2011 9:36 PM

da YouPee

Help a foreigner out here. The upper Pacific coast?

Posted by: Benjamin "pardon my French" Geiger | July 28, 2011 9:38 PM

Dhorvath:

Believe it or not, they played that song, effectively uncensored, over and over (and over and over and over and over) on the radio.

That's why I call bullshit on anyone who claims that rap/hiphop/commercial music can't be art.

Posted by: David Marjanović | July 28, 2011 9:39 PM

¿por qué hablamos otras lenguas?

¿Porqué no?

Buenas noches. Chingan sus madres.

Posted by: Dhorvath, OM | July 28, 2011 9:40 PM

Drbunsen,
The upper peninsula. Upper michigan between lake Michigan and Superior as I recall. Others may do better.

Posted by: Caine, ghetto féministe | July 28, 2011 9:41 PM

Ogvorbis:

Зошто ние зборува "одеднаш на француски? Дали јас нешто недостасува?

Um...I be clueless.

drbunsen and 'Tis, thank you both. I'm hardly the one who has had a lot to deal with though, I'm just one of many.

Algernon:

It's really for the best.

Yeah, sometimes it's the only thing to do.

Posted by: Benjamin "pardon my French" Geiger | July 28, 2011 9:41 PM

Speaking of R**ke, when he said that he would never "inflict oral sex on a women"... am I the only one for whom the most grating part of that statement was the misuse of "women" instead of "woman"?

"Women" is plural, cod blammit.

Posted by: drbunsen_le_savant_fous#d3872 | July 28, 2011 9:42 PM

Sistren is a word I've heard thrown about Rastafarian cicles, along with the gender-neutral neologism itren - as in "you are another I".

Posted by: Brother Ogvorbis, Emperor of Fire, Steam and Absurdity | July 28, 2011 9:44 PM

Llewelly:

I just really like Triassic terrestrial vertebrates. Life on drugs. Seriously. For evidence, I give you Tanystropheus.

Posted by: Dhorvath, OM | July 28, 2011 9:45 PM

Benjamin,
I have a serious problem with Eminem's attitudes at times, but damn, yes he does a good job as a wordsmith. I don't go chasing him down as I never know what I might find.

Posted by: John Morales | July 28, 2011 9:46 PM

David, [sus madres → tus madres]

(when being disrespectful, you should be familiar)

Goodnight to you, too.

--

(PS I think that verb is Mexican, not Spanish — but then, my knowledge of the language is that of a child)

Posted by: Chaos Cryptic | July 28, 2011 9:49 PM

I haven't yet booked any flights*, so it's possible that I'll go from LV to, say, LA and fly home from there...

Posted by: Tethys- zombi feministe calmar-garou. | July 28, 2011 9:51 PM

John Morales

¿por qué hablamos otras lenguas?

French troll magnanimously offered to translate our incorrect franglish titles for us.

The suggestion was not well received, so I translated the french taunters from Monty Python for him to translate.

Posted by: Carlie of the lacy, gently wafting adjectives | July 28, 2011 9:51 PM

I wonder if PZ has ever considered using a temporary ban option - a cooldown for a week or a month or so?

The time-out corner!

That might be really good, but it would add tremendously to his workload. He'd have to re-evaluate people every month, or let them in and track them for awhile, etc.

Posted by: Caine, ghetto féministe | July 28, 2011 9:52 PM

John:

So, I've learn a new word: Sistren; now duly incorporated into my lexicon.

I've seen sistren used fairly often, I find it to be a good word.

Posted by: Benjamin "pardon my French" Geiger | July 28, 2011 9:56 PM

Dhorvath:

Agreed, on all aspects.

From what I understand, Eminem can accurately be described as a misogynistic, homophobic douchenugget. (After all, his mentor is the person who popularized the phrase "bitches ain't shit", and he's certainly continued the trend [oh holy fuck you can't get a trigger warning big enough for this]. And continued.)

But that doesn't make him any less skilled a wordsmith. (It does, however, make me listen to him less frequently, and take everything he says with a grain of salt the size of a city bus.)

Posted by: Silič O'Nopolitanopoulos, Färschdbischuf Beesknees aus Ulm und Klein Elguth, Elector Pharynguline. | July 28, 2011 10:02 PM

That microaggressions site is making me macroagressive. It keeps killing my browser.

Posted by: Tethys- zombi feministe calmar-garou. | July 28, 2011 10:03 PM

I can certainly ignore trolls, it is rather fun to gang up and assault them with logic though.

Posted by: Kamaka | July 28, 2011 10:04 PM

@ Benjamin

But that doesn't make him any less skilled a wordsmith.

Is this not the guy who wrote something along the lines of "rape my sister for her birthday"?

I'm an artist. I'm cool with extreme art. This fucker is no "wordsmith". He's just another shock-jock who says nasty shit to get attention.

Posted by: Silič O'Nopolitanopoulos, Färschdbischuf Beesknees aus Ulm und Klein Elguth, Elector Pharynguline. | July 28, 2011 10:05 PM

*hugs chocolate*

--o--

Caine, I cannot know about the road not taken, but I'm glad you've made it out on the other side, for you are making life better for all of us here.

Posted by: Benjamin "pardon my French" Geiger | July 28, 2011 10:08 PM

"This fucker is no "wordsmith". He's just another shock-jock who says nasty shit to get attention."

The two are not mutually exclusive.

"Yes, there is no trigger warning big enough for that intro, GAH!"

There's a reason I linked to the lyrics, not a performance. (I don't think there was a video for it.)

Posted by: Brother Ogvorbis, Emperor of Fire, Steam and Absurdity | July 28, 2011 10:12 PM

re: rap music (including eminem): I can admire the art without liking it. I feel that way about a lot of art.

And with that comment from Captain Obvious, Brother Ogvorbis tips his hat to Tpyos and toddels off to bed.

Posted by: Carlie of the lacy, gently wafting adjectives | July 28, 2011 10:14 PM

Thanks, dr.bunsen, but I've had an incredibly easy life, so I ought to have the internal resources to be able to deal with this a lot more than I do; I'm always impressed by people who by all rights could have been beaten down by what's happened to them get up and have even more energy to fight back.

I hope Phil gets some help. He's lashing out at everyone, it seems, as a result of what's happened to him, and it's a bit of a catch-22; he can't stop hurting other people until he gets help, but he will have trouble getting help when he keeps pushing people away by hurting them.

Posted by: Caine, ghetto féministe | July 28, 2011 10:21 PM

Sili, thank you. There are a lot of us puzzle people here, and it's company I'm proud to be in.

Benjamin, however you feel about Eminem, I do think it's on the tacky side to be posting his work and discussing it, given how exhausting and difficult the last month and some days have been for many of us.

Posted by: Tethys- zombi feministe calmar-garou. | July 28, 2011 10:23 PM

@Sili

I read in Andrew Sullivan blog the daily dish a few weeks ago that Mr boehner has made exactly such investments. Something about treasury bills and federal bonds and coconut shells and special laws that only apply to the uber-rich.

Posted by: Josh, "Raquel Dommage," Porte-parole Gay Official | July 28, 2011 10:25 PM

OMG. 444 posts on the "new" thread? Look what an afternoon away will do. . .I have so much catching up to do.

But before I do, I just have to get this all out:

1. Booze is flowing! Made it to the phlebotomist in time tonight, got blood drawn, and have no lifted the alcohol ban. Oh, fuck yeah.

2. I am the butchest fag ever. After breaking poor Francine (The Big Beautiful Belvedere) last night at my friend Pat's house, I had to take Pat's car home. Got back to Pat's today (played hookie from work) with lots of parts and commenced to do a tune-up under her tutelage. And with her awesome, awesome collection of tools.

Today, I gapped and changed the spark plugs, replaced all the wires, took out the distributor and replaced the points (and those of you who've had to gap points know how fussy this work is), replaced the condensor, changed the cap and rotor, spliced a shorting-out ground wire, reset the idle.

Glory be-she fires right up with a flick of the key, and oh man, does she run well. Engine quieted right down to that sewing machine tick of the slant six. It's like driving a new car. I figure I've gained 20 horsepower just from the tune up---I can pop the clutch and burn rubber.

Next weekend---conversion to electronic ignition, valve-lash adjustment, then road trip!

Posted by: pteryxx | July 28, 2011 10:27 PM

re being strong enough to keep dealing: I was under the impression we took turns rotating off the front lines as needed? I know I was out of it last night. It seems the parallel to Manly-Man disease to expect survivors to be strong ALL the time.

Silič:

Why did a vore artist just start watching me on Deviantart ... ?

O_O Where where? (I have vore fans too.)

Posted by: Carlie of the lacy, gently wafting adjectives | July 28, 2011 10:30 PM

pteryxx - yes, but those are some awful long shifts y'all are pulling. I wasn't trying to say I expect anyone to do a big duty, just that I'm really impressed by doing duty when I'd be off curled in a corner.

Jessa - there is an airshow close by at the same time as the wool fest.

Posted by: Tethys- zombi feministe calmar-garou. | July 28, 2011 10:32 PM

@pteryxx

It was the obvious weariness of the threadizens in the month long seige that prompted me to delurk and join the battle.

I don't know how you all do it and I also salute you. I'm only on day two, and I am pretty wiped out by that last frenzy with Phil.

Posted by: pteryxx | July 28, 2011 10:33 PM

Carlie - good point. for instance, I just realized I forgot to eat or drink. brb.

Posted by: Dhorvath, OM | July 28, 2011 10:33 PM

Silič,
Whenever I have grown facial hair it has been on the point of my chin. I cut it off because during every conversation all I do is twist it.

Posted by: Dhorvath, OM | July 28, 2011 10:35 PM

Oh, and Josh. Your tale is pure awesome. Good on you and thanks I needed that.

Posted by: Jessa | July 28, 2011 10:38 PM

Carlie:

Jessa - there is an airshow close by at the same time as the wool fest.

I suggested that to him, but he's still not persuaded. I'm convinced it's intimidation, since he loves airshows. Current plan is to consider it part of our so-far-not-taken honeymoon, and stay a bit longer afterward to enjoy the fall scenery.

Posted by: Kamaka | July 28, 2011 10:40 PM

@ Lord Setar

I freely admit I'm media impaired.

Stan, Sing For the Moment, Lose Yourself, Never Enough, 8 Mile...

None of this has any meaning for me.

Back at you.

Taraf De Haidouks, Phillip Glass*, Antony and the Johnsons, Nico Muhly, 3 Mustaphas 3, Kamakawiwo'ole, La Bottine Souriante, Virginia Rodriques, Dr. Didge.

*Glassworks, Naqoyqatsi

Posted by: John Morales | July 28, 2011 10:41 PM

Dhorvath, alas, I am prone to not just facial fuzz, but to a neck beard.

(Conjugal concern compels me to depilate; or, my razor is an aphrodisiac)

Posted by: Josh, "Raquel Dommage," Porte-parole Gay Official | July 28, 2011 10:44 PM

Caine --- Oh, shoot, I forgot you're still on a booze ban of your own. . I didn't mean to flaunt it:( Tell your pancreas to kiss my taint.

I thought of you today while working on the car. Pat bought a 67 Beetle last year in mint condition. It's that Jordan-almond beige/cream color, you know? Interior is so new you can smell that distinctive VW vinyl smell of the old air-cooleds. Oh, and enamelled metal dashboard with chrome instruments. No radio. Only a gas gauge, speedometer, and a "OMG NO OILZ!!" light.

Anyway, it needs a tune up, and I'm on points duty. Pat hates doing them, and now that I've proven I have the patience to fuss with them, it's payback time. I can't wait to work on a VW!

When we get the VW all sorted, we're gonna do a car-swap day. I get the bug, and Pat gets Francine.

Posted by: Wowbagger, Man-Hating Man of Pharyngula | July 28, 2011 10:47 PM

MrFire wins one internet for inventing 'The MRA-Team'.

Posted by: Kamaka | July 28, 2011 10:47 PM

@ Jessa 451

So, any suggestions for convincing him?

Sure.

"What the hell is wrong with you? Pack your shit! Let's go!"

Posted by: Dhorvath, OM | July 28, 2011 10:51 PM

Algernon,

it kind of makes me sad.

Posted by: Tethys- zombi feministe calmar-garou. | July 28, 2011 10:54 PM

Hmm...jots down names of unfamiliar bands for later viewing.

In Jessa's hubbys defense, this blog does contain a lot of obviously brilliant people. I consider myself to be "smarter than the average bear" so to speak, and I was a bit intimidated. (but in a good way as in I really don't want to accidentally say something stupid here)

Goodnight thread. I feel like we actually made some progress today.

Posted by: Ze Madmax | July 28, 2011 10:58 PM

I also have to join in with the chorus in regards to Caine, carlie,Classical Cypher, tethys, et al. You're all amazing!

John Morales @ #398

¿por qué hablamos otras lenguas?

"¿Por qué hablamos otros idiomas?" may be a better translation, although that may be my Latino-centric opinion. "Lenguas", while a valid word for languages, it's not as commonly seen. But then, Spain may be different. Dunno, I figured I'd mention that.

Also, otters: OTTER-LINK!

Posted by: Jessa | July 28, 2011 10:58 PM

Nerd of Redhead,

Thanks for the tips on UP locales. I never thought of overlapping hands to indicate places.

On a semi-related note, Tuesday marked the day that, two years ago, I lost two dear friends when they were struck by a drunk driver at a family reunion in the UP. I just realized that.

Posted by: Michel | July 28, 2011 11:01 PM

Japan: the industry of WTF... The song was kind of good though.

Posted by: MrFire | July 28, 2011 11:02 PM

Ben Geiger:

I've been weaning myself off of Eminem with Jurassic 5, Lauryn Hill, Street Sweeper Social Club (I have a certain Pharyngulite to thank for this last one), some Mos Def and Common...

Posted by: cicely (Inadvertent Phytocidal Maniac) | July 28, 2011 11:04 PM

Good news: I got my vacation/sick payout today. So, I won't need to put a hojillion more dollars on a credit card to make it through the next month.

That's terrific news, Benjamin! :)
-

Hey kids. Read her shirt

No, seriously. Does it say what I think it says?

EUROPE IS AWAKENING FROM ITS SLUMBER...
SUPPORT THE RESISTANCE!
BECOME A JUSTICIAR KNIGHT IN YOUR COUNTRY!

(Red for emphasis.)
-

I have to tell you, I am absolutely in love with the idea of weresquid. Brilliant.

I agree. And the very next time I'm behind the screen, I'm gonna nick it! :)
-

¿por qué hablamos otras lenguas?

Porque pueden.

(Keep in mind that my last Spanish class was...let's see...1978-ish...and I've had zero real-life experience with it. Something I've been thinking of addressing.)
-

Posted by: Caine, ghetto féministe | July 28, 2011 11:04 PM

Coffeycake:

Seriously, though, I'm joining in the Caine-love that is abundant today. *hug*

:blushes: Congrats on the news, and happy knitting!

Kamaka:

Umm, OK, plenty of work is provided by one of the crappiest cars ever.

Oh c'mon. I don't care for modern beetles, but the older ones are good critters. Mister and I used to tear down beetle engines back in the day and had a nice '67 too.

Posted by: strange gods before me ॐ homintern radfem | July 28, 2011 11:05 PM

I think I found my french title.

Click on my nym! It's filled with tons of shit about the cognitive science of religion.

Posted by: onion girl, OM - Social Workers: Fixing Fuck-ups Since 1880 | July 28, 2011 11:08 PM

omfsm i am so tired.

This whole week has been this crazy last minute wrap ups for the end of the fiscal year, and also--fun, fun--almost having to fire one of my staff. Which was avoided as of this afternoon, and hopefully will continue to be avoided as the alternative would be me working the weekends until we found and trained a replacement.

Gilliel - promise I will!

Also, FYI, I created a Gmail account for this 'nym since I'm trying to keep the two separate. I think most of the regulars have my personal email, but this is the one I'll be using for all other accounts: oniongirlsays at google mail dot com.

And before I go to bed, one last not-quite-as-gentle-but-still-congenial reminder re: RHINEBECK, aka SquidCon, aka The Day the Phyber Squad Took Over the World NY.

PLEASE ANSWER THE POLL!

I am booking rooms TOMORROW!

Speak now or forever hold your...

Well, no, not really. :) Again--we can book rooms and release any that we don't need closer to the festival, so what I really need right now is just a fairly accurate estimate of the total number of people planning to be there/fairly likely to be there needing accommodation. I'm sure there will be some fluctuation back & forth in attendees between now & October, but as long as I have a general idea, I can make sure there are enough rooms booked.

Additionally, if there are financial issues preventing you from attending, please contact me privately at oniongirlsays at google mail dot com (do you like? new spiffy email not associated with my real name! :). There are a few options available to help cover the cost of lodging (including a very awesome and generous one which I will disclose at a later date).

As far as transportation and roommates and activities and food--we've got time to sort all that out; I just need to nail down the rooms because they are going fast, and in order to nail down the room, I need an estimate on participants.

So please fill out the poll if you haven't already.

In glancing past the recent subThreads, I've noticed there seem to be a number of individuals who may be able to attend. I'm sure it will be quite lovely to meet you all. I look forward to this opportunity.

.
.
.
.
.
^{_{EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!
JADEHAWK!! JULES!! WALTON! NIGEL! Maybe SALLY? And BILL? And ILLUMINATA?
EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!
You scream! I scream! We all scream for ice cream sheep wool squid knitting phyber ...the Squid Team?
...Huh. We'll have to work on that.}}

Nite!

Posted by: Dhorvath, OM | July 28, 2011 11:09 PM

Sally Strange,
Strange Little Girls indeed.

Posted by: Antiochus Epiphanes | July 28, 2011 11:14 PM

Tethys 458:

It was the obvious weariness of the threadizens in the month long seige that prompted me to delurk and join the battle.

It was like when the elves marched to Helm's Deep to aid the Rohirrim. Spears were shaken!

Posted by: Ze Madmax | July 28, 2011 11:15 PM

Dhorvath @ #498

The HTML gods are not pleased with me. I may have to burn some Dreamweaver for Dummies manuals on a sacred pyre.

But alas. OTTER-LINK!

Posted by: Dhorvath, OM | July 28, 2011 11:21 PM

Ze Madmax,
Were I to be able to pick an animal, I would be an otter. Just sayin.

Posted by: Kamaka | July 28, 2011 11:21 PM

@ Caine

Mister and I used to tear down beetle engines back in the day and had a nice '67 too.

You have my deepest sympathies.

Though I must say, tearing motors apart together is very hawt.

Posted by: cicely (Inadvertent Phytocidal Maniac) | July 28, 2011 11:23 PM

I'm constantly amazed at how strong so many of you are. I'm always in awe.

Me, too; and I include you in that, Carlie. :)
-

*hugs chocolate*

All that'll do is get you all sticky, and the chocolate covered in lint-fuzzies; a waste of both chocolate and lint-fuzzies.

*eats chocolate*
-

. Booze is flowing!

Excellent news, Josh! Here's to your good health! *clink*
-

MrFire wins one internet for inventing 'The MRA-Team'.

Which for some reason my mind transmuted into 'The MRSA-Team'.
-

Posted by: Dhorvath, OM | July 28, 2011 11:28 PM

Cicely,
For some reason they suit one another.

Posted by: cicely (Inadvertent Phytocidal Maniac) | July 28, 2011 11:30 PM

Yes; they're both contagious pains in the ass.
:) :) :)
-

Posted by: cicely (Inadvertent Phytocidal Maniac) | July 28, 2011 11:33 PM

Cicely, For some reason they suit one another.

Yes; they're both contagious pains in the ass.

(Apologies if this is redundant.)

Posted by: Josh, "Raquel Dommage," Porte-parole Gay Official | July 28, 2011 11:41 PM

@SallyStrange:

Man, that sounds so awesome. I'm jealous. Also, DRINKING! HURRAY! Did you call me earlier?

Yes, girl, I did call when I got to Burlington. Was all prepared to take you for a spin in Francine, then out for a drink. It was just a spur of the moment thing, no big deal.

I know you and Mikey txted me over the weekend about Pride, and I didn't get back to you. Sorry:( I was otherwise occupied with housework, and besides, it was too fuckin' hot. I never would have left the air conditioning. Hope you had fun, though!

Posted by: pteryxx | July 28, 2011 11:53 PM

Ah, Sili, my apologies. I heard you had watcher(s) on dA and just assumed...

Posted by: Silič O'Nopolitanopoulos, Färschdbischuf Beesknees aus Ulm und Klein Elguth, Elector Pharynguline. | July 28, 2011 11:59 PM

Of course, that's what the place is for. I just have an account so I can comment on stuff I like.

But for some reason the occasional watcher drops by. I suspect in part in an attempt to get a 'watch-back'. DA-penis is measured in watchers and pageviews after all. (My last watcher was a pageview factory.)

Vore's not my thing, but to each their own. Of course, some people would likely put me down as a paedophile for the anime and fanart I like.

Posted by: pteryxx | July 29, 2011 12:06 AM

I like animals, anatomy, parasites, creepy and snarly things, so... I got vore fans. *shrug* But their commissions are FUN! So much fun to draw twisted creatures eating each other.

Oh - and there are a few folks on dA and FA that I watch, not for their art, but for their taste in favorites and who THEY watch, as if they were reviewers. One or two I watch on the strength of their comments alone.

Posted by: Bill Dauphin, avec fromage | July 29, 2011 12:08 AM

OK, in no particular order:

DMFM:

It's not settled completely yet, but some demographics use "guys" as ungendered.

Yep. For some Americans, "you guys" is simply the plural of "you"; I've witnessed a female postdoc use it to address a room full of professors of both genders.

True 'dat, and I use "guys" that way myself, sometimes... but I can't help wondering if that really means it's ungendered, or if it's just yet another case of sweeping women under the umbrella of male-gendered language?

All (you know who you are):

Like Carlie, I'm in awe of how strong many of you are... but I confess I can only guess at how strong that truly is, because life hasn't tested my own strength in those ways.

Phil (banned, I know, but in case you're still reading):

Take it from another who posts under his RL name: It's no fucking badge of honor, and there's no shame in those who post here under a nym. Many have good reasons to keep their online and meatspace lives separate, and for others, the nym is every bit as authentic an expression of their selves as any other name. You can take that "at least I use my real name" shit and shove it.

Josh, OSG:

Glad to see you're back off the wagon. Are you coming to Rhinebeck? If so, and if I make it, I'll bring some homemade booze for you. Hell, I'll bring homemade booze for all y'all!

Finally, it kinda got lost in all the troll stomping and MRA policing, but my predictions for SYTYCD were 3/4 right, and then 1/2 right. The talent level on this season has been amazing; it's been weeks since the dancers getting cut weren't all great.

Posted by: John Morales | July 29, 2011 12:15 AM

Like Carlie, I'm in awe of how strong many of you are... but I confess I can only guess at how strong that truly is, because life hasn't tested my own strength in those ways.

Yeah, what Bill said.

(Thanks, Bill; you are more articulate and thoughtful than I, in my estimation.)

Posted by: strange gods before me ॐ homintern radfem | July 29, 2011 12:20 AM

**Unless there is an Idiot's Guide to Cognitive Science. There has to be, right?

I do have an introductory article around here somewhere that may serve as an idiot's guide to the cognitive science of religion. I'll try to have it posted to TET by the morning.

I need some remediation, and may have to start with Psychology for Dummies** to make any progress

Recalling my psych 101 text, I think such would probably be too general to be helpful here.

Perhaps an immersion in cognitive science, though? Toss you in the deep end? These classic papers would be a worthwhile introduction to the concepts, and then if you want more, the Cognitive Science Society has about two dozen archived back-issues.

*I can't remember if it was you or someone else who recommended Boyer's Religion Explained.

Me and someone elses: Paul W, Steve LaBonne, abb3w.

I read it, and more or less felt like I was being fucked with the whole time.

Heh. I think older narratives of the mind are more appealing because they explain so much symbolically, that is, in the brain's own natural language. Work like Boyer's is so reductive that it's disturbing.

Still: «the cause of the origin of a thing and its eventual utility, its actual employment and place in a system of purposes, lie worlds apart; whatever exists, having somehow come into being, is again and again reinterpreted to new ends, taken over, transformed, and redirected by some power superior to it ... However well one has understood the utility of any physiological organ (or of a legal institution, a social custom, a political usage, a form in art or in a religious cult), this means nothing regarding its origin: however uncomfortable and disagreeable this may sound to older ears—for one had always believed that to understand the demonstrable purpose, the utility of a thing, a form, or an institution, was also to understand the reason why it originated—the eye being made for seeing, the hand being made for grasping.»

Posted by: Josh, "Raquel Dommage," Porte-parole Gay Official | July 29, 2011 12:24 AM

@Chimpie:

jealous

Then join us in October. There's more than enough room at the house to sleep two more. I'd love the company of you and Mrs. Chimp. And your 'lil typyos.

Posted by: Josh, "Raquel Dommage," Porte-parole Gay Official | July 29, 2011 12:26 AM

Chimpie -damn you!!!!!!

Posted by: Wowbagger, Man-Hating Man of Pharyngula | July 29, 2011 12:29 AM

While you all are at Rhinebeck in New York, I've rented a house on a rural lake here in Vermont. MrFire and family, Audley and Mr. Darkheart, and SallyStrange, are coming up for a long weekend of cooking, drinking, and paddle-boating on the lake.

Paddlin' the school canoe? Oooh, you better believe that's a paddlin'.

Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | July 29, 2011 12:32 AM

Chimpie -damn you!!!!!!

muuuuuhahahaha

Posted by: strange gods before me ॐ homintern radfem | July 29, 2011 12:36 AM

True 'dat, and I use "guys" that way myself, sometimes... but I can't help wondering if that really means it's ungendered, or if it's just yet another case of sweeping women under the umbrella of male-gendered language?

A few women of my acquaintance have complained about and/or snarked my use of you guys, so I think there's something there.

Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | July 29, 2011 12:41 AM

A few women of my acquaintance have complained about and/or snarked my use of you guys, so I think there's something there.

It's got to be better than ya'll, something I stripped from my speaking vocab at a young age.

Posted by: Bill Dauphin, avec fromage | July 29, 2011 12:48 AM

Josh:

While I'm Super Butch™ when it comes to cars, ...

What is it with the Gay Men of Pharyngula™ and cars, anyway? IIRC, MAJeff had some kinda' sweet ride, too. Me, OTOH... if you judged me solely on my handiness with cars, I'd be the polar opposite of butch.

I never could understand what the appeal of American football was. Except for the uniforms, obviously. It's quite apparent why those ass-hugging things are delightful.

You suppose it's just socially acceptable homoeroticism for straight guys? ;^)

I'm actually no more than a casual football fan, myself, but I always enjoy a day at the ballpark.... in the same way that a live concert is always fun, even if it's not your favorite sort of music. Something about Being There©. Plus the good company, of course.

Posted by: Silič O'Nopolitanopoulos, Färschdbischuf Beesknees aus Ulm und Klein Elguth, Elector Pharynguline. | July 29, 2011 12:50 AM

Oh - and there are a few folks on dA and FA that I watch, not for their art, but for their taste in favorites and who THEY watch, as if they were reviewers. One or two I watch on the strength of their comments alone.

But I commission lossa smut now that I can afford it.

Posted by: Bill Dauphin, avec fromage | July 29, 2011 12:57 AM

Rev BDC:

It's got to be better than ya'll, something I stripped from my speaking vocab at a young age.

See, now, I've always thought y'all¹ was the distinct second-person plural pronoun English lacks, and desperately needs. As long as it's only used as a plural prounoun², I support its use without reservation.


¹ Note position of apostrophe: Your tithe to Typos for today has been paid. ;^)

² The practice of applying y'all to single individuals is an abomination; a Yankee mockery of the true, pure Southern usage. (In case you haven't noticed, you can take the boy out of Texas, but you can'tcaint take the Texas out of the boy!)

Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | July 29, 2011 1:04 AM

That's funny. Y'all has always been part of my vocabulary, but more often as an adult since I care less about being judged for it. In place of you guys, though, I think I've been using you folks. Note to Brits: that's pronounced fokes.

Heh. I guess it was me dropping any hint of my southernness when I was a young teenager. Something I don't do at all any more.

But y'alls be gone for a while.

Posted by: Rey Fox, Bird Caller Guy | July 29, 2011 1:05 AM

I feel like Skepticon's gonna be pretty empty, coming on the heels of this big sheep convention.

Please don't read too much into this, but I saw SallyStrange's:

So, what is my internet personality, according to you? Now I'm awkwardly pryingly curious.

followed closely by Josh's:

I am the butchest fag ever.

And it just seemed weirdly fitting.

Speaking of which, did you ever find that lady from the pride ball, Sally?

Posted by: pteryxx | July 29, 2011 1:08 AM

well Sili, my rather neglected pages and gmail are under my nym, should you be curious. ~;>

Posted by: Bill Dauphin, avec fromage | July 29, 2011 1:09 AM

sgbm:

I think I've been using you folks. Note to Brits: that's pronounced fokes.

Yah, I tend to use folks and you folks a lot, too.

Funny thing about pronunciation: A branch of my grandmother's family lived in Norfolk, VA. As it happens, the locals pronounce their town's name as Naw-fuck... and it was always amusing to watch how carefully my conservative Baptist schoolmarm (literally; she was a teacher) of a grandmother said Nor-foLk!

Posted by: Silič O'Nopolitanopoulos, Färschdbischuf Beesknees aus Ulm und Klein Elguth, Elector Pharynguline. | July 29, 2011 1:14 AM

I've been using you folks. Note to Brits: that's pronounced fokes.

Posted by: Bill Dauphin, avec fromage | July 29, 2011 1:25 AM

Rev BDC:

The Tea Party morons are hell bent on sending us into default, on purpose. Because it will be "good for us".

But it will be good for us, eventually: If they do in fact drive us off this cliff, we won't have another Republican majority in Congress for 50 years.

Of course, it'll also probably take 50 years (if not 10× that long) to repair the damage they'll do.... <sigh>

I've heard this (along with some previous showdowns between Obama and the Tea Party) described as a game of chicken... but the thing is, when the folks in the other car are actually suicidal, you can't possibly win! Esp. not when you have 300 million (or 7 billion, depending on how you look at it) innocent passengers riding with you in your car.

Posted by: First Approximation, L'esprit de l'escalier | July 29, 2011 1:28 AM

I lived in Northern Ontario for a bit and yous* was commonly used for second person plural.

*Also spelt youse and youze

Posted by: Zorku | July 29, 2011 1:35 AM

So I read that bit on rape culture and... it doesn't seem exactly relevant to the posts that came before it.

I'm not entirely familiar with the way things are done in the comments here so I've had some trouble keeping track of who said what and thus may be a bit off but if I understanding it the banned fellow was arguing that using the word cunt doesn't promote rape (any more than calling someone a dick) and that article didn't even seem to make a case for stopping that kind of word usage.

It's all kind of a mess with that other topic of a rape victim getting doubted so I've got to assume I've missed a great deal of context when the word was first used- else this argument didn't make much sense.

I'm all for avoiding terms like that to make the community more inviting for women but that doesn't seem to be the point that was being made.

Posted by: Chaos Cryptic | July 29, 2011 1:39 AM

Zorku, if you actually really want to understand, I applaud you, but people upthread have requested that this sort of conversation be sort of gently redirected for a while. People are very very tired of the discussion, and it has been a source of great stress for a lot of us. None of us but PZ has any particular authority over how these conversations go, and other people here may be absolutely willing to engage you, but as for my own personal tuppence: hold that thought, and we can have a lively discussion about this later, when people aren't on their last, frayed nerve.

Posted by: devnull73.myopenid.com | July 29, 2011 1:43 AM

Cath @419:

Yeah, I think Phil might possibly be worthwhile in the long run. Also devnull.

Aww shucks, thanks Cath ;)

Im readin, and learnin.... Prolly be AFK for a while, partly to avoid the raging wrath of the easter bunny PZ. :)

Posted by: devnull73.myopenid.com | July 29, 2011 1:45 AM

FUUUUUUU! DAMN YOU TO HELL BLOCKQUOTE!!!!

Posted by: chigau (◦_◦) | July 29, 2011 1:48 AM

As god is my witness I thought Dah YooPee was one of those weird englishizations of a Native American word.
I feel so stooopid.

Posted by: Zorku | July 29, 2011 1:51 AM

I'm not active enough to catch when people start it up again. I was only reading the comments here to try and figure out what the hell that video was about and happened to make a post in the middle of this topic.

I don't see any way to get some kind of alert send to me on here so I guess that's that. With this kind of ignorance I'm sure it won't be all that long until someone takes me aside and explains it, unless I got the topic entirely wrong anyway.

Posted by: Bill Dauphin, avec fromage | July 29, 2011 1:54 AM

sgbm:

I note the presence of you lot on that list of pronouns, and I'm afraid that one's been spoiled for me: From now 'til the heat death of the universe, anyone saying "you lot" will just sound like Ron Weasley to me!

Posted by: Chaos Cryptic | July 29, 2011 1:55 AM

I was only reading the comments here to try and figure out what the hell that video was about and happened to make a post in the middle of this topic.

I don't see any way to get some kind of alert send to me on here so I guess that's that. With this kind of ignorance I'm sure it won't be all that long until someone takes me aside and explains it, unless I got the topic entirely wrong anyway.

Posted by: AJ Milne OM | July 29, 2011 2:11 AM

Eh wot? Missed a little o' the dramah, did I?

Huh. Quel dommage.

And seriously, 577? 577!?

Listen, people. I'm close to clinically obsessive and I read fast and this is pushing too much even for me. What in the bleeding hell?

... oh, and re 'youse' and Northern Ontario: y'know, I paid good money to a widely-recommended stage hypnotist completely to forget that yousage. Now, entirely thanks to youse, it's now entirely undone. Curse youse! Curse youse to... erm...

(/... Kirkland Lake?)

Posted by: RahXephon, un féminist sur la branche | July 29, 2011 2:34 AM

Hey everyone. I just got back into my room. My cat knocked my trash can over and now, for some reason, there's a persistent garbage smell in my room. I even cleaned the carpet and I still smell it. Either way, it kept me out of my room and away from my desktop for about a day.

So what's going on, eh? Did I miss anything good? Any trolls implode?

Posted by: strange gods before me ॐ homintern radfem | July 29, 2011 2:58 AM

So what's going on, eh? Did I miss anything good? Any trolls implode?

Phil and rystefn both got banned.

Phil hasn't posted at ERV's since 5:00 PM scienceblogs time. It'll be interesting to see if he keeps trying to fit in with them.

Posted by: strange gods before me ॐ homintern radfem | July 29, 2011 3:35 AM

devnull73: shut the fuck up and leave.

Posted by: devnull73.myopenid.com | July 29, 2011 3:56 AM

strange @584: Havent we been down this road before?

Posted by: strange gods before me ॐ homintern radfem | July 29, 2011 4:11 AM

Nietzsche said God is dead almost 130 years ago. I don't see a lot of use in this day and age in pointing out to people that I think God doesn't exist.

I really don't hate all atheists. Promise. I just hate some. And they seem to correlate to the loudest ones.

And it's not as though patriarchy casts a shadow.

Posted by: strange gods before me ॐ homintern radfem | July 29, 2011 4:14 AM

strange @584: Havent we been down this road before?

devnull73, you are a piece of shit. Stop talking. Here is some good advice that applies to you too.

Posted by: strange gods before me ॐ homintern radfem | July 29, 2011 4:18 AM

I wish I had her...... wordiness.

Didn't we just go over the fact that you don't know the first fucking thing about anything, devnull73? And didn't you finally fucking admit it? And now here you are right back on track with trying to tell other people what should not be important to them.

This is why you need to shut the fuck up for a while.

Posted by: Rorschach | July 29, 2011 4:45 AM

Thank dog, finally a beer !!! 8 days working out of the last 9, you have got to be kidding me.

*catching up*

Commiserations to those like Aratina Cage who kept working in the slimepit until its heat death, which seems to be finally occuring now.

I'm just going to get drunk tonight, thank you very much.

To Phil Giordana : How many ?

Posted by: hotshoe | July 29, 2011 4:57 AM

Not only Americans. I remember a conversation between my two Irish housemates where one told the other that "a guy" called for him and the other one asking back specifically "guy or girl". He obviously took "guy" as "somebody".

Posted by: strange gods before me ॐ homintern radfem | July 29, 2011 5:11 AM

Commiserations to those like Aratina Cage who kept working in the slimepit until its heat death, which seems to be finally occuring now.

Agreed. It's sad to see Truth Machine still flaming out. His bizarre responses to Aratina Cage seem to stem from an irrational hatred of Pharyngula generally.

Posted by: Rorschach | July 29, 2011 5:13 AM

It's sad to see Truth Machine still flaming out.

Oh, I missed this. It was him ?

Posted by: Rorschach | July 29, 2011 5:26 AM

*further catching up*

"PZ Lyers"

Gee, they have some gift with language there, you have to give it to them.

Although I am somewhat at pains to see how TM would spend any time at all arguing with or for a crowd of retards who use "arguments" like this :

Pz is a day-old donut. Laden is lemon jello. And Watson is a twatsicle.

Seriously, wtf ?

Posted by: theophontes (θεός γαμώτο) | July 29, 2011 5:29 AM

_{theophontes pops in to show of teh new nym...}

Zu geil vor diesem weldt!

^kekekeke

Posted by: Giliell, connaiseuse des choses bonnes | July 29, 2011 5:37 AM

@theophontes
Zu geil für diese Welt?
or
Nicht von dieser Welt?

Oh, devnull, btw, I once got the "need a good fuck" as an invitation for consensual sex from an Arab man (Arab, not muslim). We were on a bus from a congress and since he'd lived in Germany for a while he was glad to be able to use his German again, and we were talking about politics and the latest reforms and stuff when, out of the blue, he told me that he'd leared one thing about Germany and that was that German men weren't good enough and what German women really needed was a good hard Arab dick in their vaginas and he offered to give me that extra-special treatment.

Posted by: RahXephon, un féminist sur la branche | July 29, 2011 5:39 AM

Dont you think thats kind of an extreme gender-based slur though? Id call that a direct threat. Can you follow the same thought process using a less extreme example?

I have no idea why, but since I'm continuing to give you the benefit of the doubt here, I have to ask: are you asking this in an attempt to get a more reasonable example so you can again say "gee, that's so subtle though, how could it even matter?" I ask because so far, the examples you've been given have either been too extreme to actually happen (in your opinion), or so "subtle" as to be irrelevant. Either way, you seem to be hand-waving them away to justify your use of language.

Also: threats against women aren't rare. They're depressingly common.

Posted by: Richard Eis | July 29, 2011 6:09 AM

Phil :

What I say in other venues is my business, according to the master of said venue. Deal?

So you go somewhere and start insulting until told to stop. Even though you have gone to multiple venues where you have been told it is innappropriate to use certain words you continue to use them to new women simply because the venue has changed.

Your default mode is therefore to be crass and misogynistic unless told otherwise, and never learn anyway. Congratulations on your social ineptitude and gross, unthinking stupidity.

Reminds me of all those idiots saying -"Rebecca was asked out, and turned the guy down what's the problem? He respected her wishes.... Eventually."-

Posted by: Giliell, connaiseuse des choses bonnes | July 29, 2011 6:21 AM

1886

She started a shitstorm because we have so much dead wood in the atheist community.

Yeah, they had the same problem in Germany back in the 1930's.

Posted by: forced to be anonymous | July 29, 2011 5:29 AM[kill]​[hide comment]

BUt I'm glad to note a severe difference: When members here made shitty posts they were called out on it and severly chastised. No special treatment. Where's that herd hive mentality gone?
Over there nobody even comments on shit like that.

Posted by: RahXephon, un féminist sur la branche | July 29, 2011 6:28 AM

@Giliell

After looking at that comment, I have the feeling he's forced to be anonymous to avoid the authorities.

Posted by: triskelethecat | July 29, 2011 6:39 AM

@Brother Ogvorbis (#411) awww...whatfor you callin' me and mine trolls? Can't help the fact I'm a Detroiter. I love the UP but my heart belongs to Daddy.

@John Morales (#422): yes, I think that verb is Mexican Spanish. At least, it's been known a long time (John Steinbeck used a form of the verb in Travels with Charley)

@Josh (#452): You'd better have Francine in TOP condition by the time I get up there in September. We have a date, remember!

@Nerd of Redhead: very nice Michigan description. We were actually taught that in school, 3rd grade, when we learned Michigan history. (I still have my "story" I wrote about a period of Michigan history since my mom never threw anything out and is now giving all this stuff to me and my siblings since she does not want it any more...)

Breakfast calls...See you all later.

Posted by: Giliell, connaiseuse des choses bonnes | July 29, 2011 6:44 AM

Really? I see sarcastic comments about the Nazis all the time.

BTW, did they have homophobia yet? They had misogyny, racism, anti-semitism now, homophobia is still missing.

Oh, btw I always get great inspiration from watching birds from my window. To see how the comparably small and fragile crows take down and chase away the huge birds of prey (I mean huge like bald-headed eagle huge, I live close to a zoo) gives me satisfaction.