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I'm sure they'd let her use their bathroom, though

Category: Equality
Posted on: July 26, 2011 7:36 AM, by PZ Myers

Ah, the subtle ways we can discriminate. An Arkansas school decided a black woman just wasn't the right kind of person to stand up at their graduation ceremony.

A high school southeast of Little Rock would not let a black student be valedictorian though she had the highest grade-point average, and wouldn't let her mom speak to the school board about it until graduation had passed, the graduate claims in Federal Court.

Kymberly Wimberly, 18, got only a single B in her 4 years at McGehee Secondary School, and loaded up on Honors and Advanced Placement classes. She had the highest G.P.A. and says the school's refusal to let her be sole valedictorian was part of a pattern of discrimination against black students.

Wimberly says that despite earning the highest G.P.A. of the Class of 2011, and being informed of it by a school counselor, "school administrators and personnel treated two other white students as heir[s] apparent to the valedictorian and salutatorian spots."

Doesn't that bring up those fond memories of high school? We all knew who the anointed ones were, the kids who were typically the children of the wealthier members of the community, who had the connections, who had the right image, who associated with the right other kids, who were in the right clubs. I remember my one brief moment of 'fame' in my high school: I blew the doors off the SAT exams, and was one of four who were National Merit Award finalists. We were all called into the principal's office for congratulations, and the guy schmoozed up to the other three, the popular kids, and laughed and joked and had a grand time, and finally came to me, the strange nerd in the well-worn jeans and ragged shirt, gave me a "who the hell are you?" look, and said "Good work." Done.

And then we got acknowledged in an assembly. The other three got praise and thorough introductions; I got named, nothing more, and was last. It was the weirdest feeling: nobody had said anything wrong about me, I was given a moment in the spotlight, but somehow I came out of it feeling like I'd been snubbed and spit upon. I wasn't the right kind of person, I didn't belong to the blessed clique, I was an interloper.

I can sort of understand where the administrators are coming from. They'd probably say they aren't racist, oh no, it's just that Bob and Janet (or whatever the white kids' names are) have been such active leaders in the school, they've had school spirit, everyone knows and loves Bob and Janet, they deserve prominence at graduation — they'll say nothing demeaning about Wimberly at all, they'll couch it all in the most positive terms. And the black woman will still feel the sting of being snubbed, because she'll have gotten the message: hard work, intelligence and talent simply aren't as important as being the right kind of kid. Sorry, girl, academic accomplishment isn't as important as going to the good church, dressing right, being in sports or cheerleading, going to the right parties, and all that other stuff that establishes your position in the social hierarchy. Shoulda studied less math and worked harder at being white, like Bob and Janet.

Racism is only rarely a matter of snarled epithets and swinging ax handles. Usually it's a subtler thing, where a groups are set apart on superficial criteria, and the categorization becomes a proxy for recognizing ability honestly.

(via Think Progress)

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Comments

#1

Posted by: janiceclanfield Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 8:27 AM

Hopefully this will prompt her to get the hell out of Arkansas and on her way to a place that deserves her. Idiots, they're everywhere.

#2

Posted by: Katherine Lorraine, Chaton de la Mort Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 8:30 AM

That's the worst kind of racism, too. It's a subtle, behind-the-scenes kind of dismissal of someone. They don't say or do anything overt to call out their racist behavior so arguing racism is impossible since "I didn't do anything racist."

However to the student, this totally tells her, without telling her "you're not worthy enough to get up here. If only you were the right kind of person."

It's sickening.

#3

Posted by: Kobra Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 8:30 AM

I hope the thought that a black girl kicked their white kids' asses at academics sits in the back of the administrations' minds for years to come.

Wait no I don't. Then they would harass the black students to sabotage their grades. FUUUUUU. The only winning move is not to play.

#4

Posted by: Beatrice, anormalement indécente Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 8:35 AM

After reading the link, I think this might be more than just one kind of discrimination:

"Defendants did not support African-American students, and did not want to see Wimberly, an African-American young mother as valedictorian.
Black and a teen mother. The horror!

#5

Posted by: Andy Groves Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 8:35 AM

Well said.

If anyone is trying to organize a college scholarship for Kymberly, I'm in for a hundred bucks.

#6

Posted by: jamie.gillett Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 8:37 AM

Isn't it possible that she was snubbed because she was nerdy and unpopular and that her skin colour didn't factor into it? Perhaps she would have been snubbed even if she had been white.

I think what happened was wrong but I'll put a big 'maybe' on the racism accusation.

#7

Posted by: https://www.google.com/accounts/o8/id?id=AItOawnedhY9IP_bTm-7tkXhQKHrX4-MBV23D0M Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 8:39 AM

When I was in high school, I had the highest grades in my chemistry classes, despite never going to class (my girlfriend told me when the exams were scheduled). I made no effort, but my "teacher" never even noticed. I went on to earn a Ph.D., hold an NIH postdoc fellowship at an Ivy League school, earn the rank of Full Professor at a Big-Ten chemistry department, etc., etc. In short, I've achieved far more academically than any of my high school classmates. Had I been popular, from one of the families you describe, it would have been noted as remarkable. I was a nobody, actually a troublemaker, pot-head, etc., and it has never been noted. My high school had 500 students.

#8

Posted by: Katherine Lorraine, Chaton de la Mort Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 8:39 AM

@jamie:

From the link:

The last African-American valedictorian in McGehee School District was in 1989. Wimberly says the school discourages black students from taking honors and advanced placement classes, "by telling them, among other things, that the work was too hard."

In a school district that's 43% black... yea... there's no racism there *rolls eyes*

#9

Posted by: necronomikron Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 8:40 AM

...McGehee high school? Not surprised.

Students must be continuously enrolled at McGehee High School the last two semesters without transferring during this time to be considered in class ranking or eligible for valedictorian or salutatorian status.

That's all that's 'required' for valedictorian: it's just a popularity contest.

And... amazing how McGehee somehow ends up with all the white kids, and the school in the next town somehow ends up with all the black kids...

#10

Posted by: Phro Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 8:41 AM

jamie.gillett:
I can see why you might want to believe that. (It'd be nice if they weren't racist, but just run-of-the-mill jerkoffs.) But doesn't that seem a bit...unrealistic and naive?

Also, this was in the original article:

The last African-American valedictorian in McGehee School District was in 1989. Wimberly says the school discourages black students from taking honors and advanced placement classes, "by telling them, among other things, that the work was too hard."

#11

Posted by: Phro Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 8:43 AM

A bit late to the punch there, wasn't I? Hah!

#12

Posted by: MrFire Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 8:44 AM

Also, she had a child:

"Defendants did not support African-American students, and did not want to see Wimberly, an African-American young mother as valedictorian.

I think the combination of the two (racism, unwed(?) mother) is probably what made them feel comfortable wearing their bigotry on their sleeve.

Of course, it only makes Wimberly look even more accomplished.

#13

Posted by: necronomikron Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 8:44 AM

(Amendment: Dermott high school has a 90%+ black population, and isn't very far from McGehee. How does one end up with a dozen white kids, and the other end up with over 50%?)

#14

Posted by: Brother Bill Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 8:45 AM

The "D" that I got in Wood Shop ensured that the coach's son finished with a higher academic average than me.

#15

Posted by: valis667 Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 8:46 AM

I call bullshit. This is pure speculation and innuendo. Unlike the rest of you, I shall wait for the facts to emerge before jumping on the race-card bandwagon.

#16

Posted by: RahXephon, un féminist sur la branche Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 8:46 AM

Isn't it possible that she was snubbed because she was nerdy and unpopular and that her skin colour didn't factor into it? Perhaps she would have been snubbed even if she had been white.

Ah, giving racism the benefit of the doubt. Because if anything deserves that...it's racism. Nevermind that there's evidence of systematic discrimination.

I think what happened was wrong but I'll put a big 'maybe' on the racism accusation.

The issue here is that a black student was denied the valedictorian spot, a position of recognition for academic achievement, so that white kids who didn't have as much academic achievement could take the spot. Race is key to the issue, and if you doubt racism was involved, then why do you think there's a problem at all?

#17

Posted by: consciousness razor Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 8:48 AM

Usually it is more subtle, but this looks pretty fucking blatant.

from the courthousenews site:

McGehee Secondary School is predominantly white, and 46 percent African-American, according to the complaint. Bratton says that the day after she heard the "big mess" comment, McGehee Principal Darrell Thompson, a defendant, told her "that he decided to name a white student as co-valedictorian," although the white student had a lower G.P.A.

The superintendent also gave her the run-around about filling out the wrong kind of form. The whole lot of these shitstains have a "big mess" to deal with now.

I swear, it's going to shatter their minds whenever they find out a black dude was elected President.

#18

Posted by: MrFire Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 8:49 AM

*hat tip to beatrice @4, who beat me to it*

#19

Posted by: kellogg.david Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 8:49 AM

This post gets a lot better after PZ gets past making it all about himself.

#20

Posted by: Katherine Lorraine, Chaton de la Mort Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 8:49 AM

@valis:

Read what myself and Phro said, combined with the evidence of necronomikron's posts, it's pretty clear this school district is steeped in racism.

#21

Posted by: Beatrice, anormalement indécente Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 8:51 AM

jamie.gillett,

Why does it have to be unpopularity or racism? It can be both. Add to that the fact that she is a teen mother. She was The Other in every kind of sense that seems to matter to that school's administration.

#22

Posted by: jamie.gillett Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 8:51 AM

Anybody trying to portray my comments as stating there is no racism occuring is an idiot.

The issue here is that a black student was denied the valedictorian spot, a position of recognition for academic achievement, so that white kids who didn't have as much academic achievement could take the spot. Race is key to the issue, and if you doubt racism was involved, then why do you think there's a problem at all?

Because I think if you take out the black and white from that statement it's still a problem:

A student was denied the valedictorian spot, a position of recognition for academic achievement, so that other kids who didn't have as much academic achievement could take the spot.

As PZ pointed out, snubbing somebody doesn't have to be racist.

#23

Posted by: TBP Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 8:54 AM

Can't speak with absolute certainty after almost 40 years, but I'm pretty sure that at my high school the person with the highest GPA was valedictorian. Period. Up until five minutes ago I thought that's what being valedictorian meant (to the extent that I thought about it at all, which isn't much). I had no idea other schools used different criteria.

This young woman apparently managed to have the highest grades in her class despite being a teen mother. I certainly don't want to encourage teenagers to have kids, but I think that makes her achievement all the more remarkable. Honestly I wish there were a way she could sue the school district, except that would divert already scarce (I'm sure) resources away from the students still there.

#24

Posted by: RahXephon, un féminist sur la branche Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 8:56 AM

#22:

There's a problem with your...problem. You rendered my post as this:

A student was denied the valedictorian spot, a position of recognition for academic achievement, so that other kids who didn't have as much academic achievement could take the spot.

...yet you give no reason for why such a thing would occur. Why would you give a position like that to someone who doesn't deserve it? Oh, right, you excised any chance for a motivation so you could, for some unfathomable reason, focus solely on the result.

#25

Posted by: Curlew Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 8:57 AM

'm sck f nggrs wth chps n thr shldrs.

Gt vr yrslvs !

[Banned. --pzm]

#26

Posted by: necronomikron Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 8:59 AM

Oh yes.

Now I remember where the population imbalance comes from.(I went to Dermott high school for a year...)

Apparently, both schools allow for students outside their district to attend, with the right forms. But, the parents have to transport them to the other district themselves, as the busses will not transport them to the other district.

Seeing as how this is a farming community, and the income disparity between the blacks and whites in said community...

#27

Posted by: mitchell97 Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 9:00 AM

"The school district, and more specifically the office of Superintendent Thomas Gathen (who is African-American, btw), has so far refused to comment on the matter, at least according to this report.

We also haven’t heard from the school’s principal, Darrell Thompson, who made the decision to elevate a white student into the newly created co-valedictorian spot.

The “big mess” that CNS conveniently omits from its report is that Wimberly gave birth to a child her junior year of high school. Now, that’s much ado about nothing. Teens have babies all the time, and having one shouldn’t disqualify a student from being valedictorian. But it’s worth mentioning on the off-hand chance that the high school’s requirements for valedictorian are more than just the student with the highest GPA. What if they have a conduct requirement or some other such nonsense?

The other interesting part of the story is how the tiny town in Southeast Arkansas (population 4,500 or so) is portrayed in various reports. The high school is described as “predominantly white” by Courthouse News Service. Except, it then writes that 46 percent of the student body is African-American. Now, we’re no linguistic specialist, but the term predominantly carries the undertone of “the school is so much more white we can’t possibly afford to have an African-American as the valedictorian.”

From http://hypervocal.com/news/2011/is-this-small-town-arkansas-high-school-racist/

#28

Posted by: Curlew Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 9:00 AM

PS - Americans don't get sarcasm/irony.

[Oh, you're just making a tasteless joke? Maybe I should reconsider the ban. --pzm]

#29

Posted by: rwahrens Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 9:00 AM

jamie;

It is Alabama. Trust me, it's racist at the core. One doesn't need to see anything but the address to know it is racism, primarily.

Could it have been the other, too? Sure, but it is Alabama.

Racism is what they do there.

#30

Posted by: necronomikron Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 9:02 AM

@Mitchell: Above, I posted, straight from their handbook, the 'requirements' for consideration for valedictorian.

#31

Posted by: kellogg.david Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 9:02 AM

Curlew, is that what it was? Keep your day job.

#32

Posted by: NoYourGod Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 9:02 AM

Oh, that brings up memories. "We all knew who the anointed ones were, the kids who were typically the children of the wealthier members of the community, who had the connections", although my situation was closer to PZ's and not in any way racial (how racial could it be with 1 black family and 1 Asian family in the district?).

My best friend and I "battled" for highest grades. We probably swapped top spot 3 or 4 times during high school. I was from a regular family, while his family owned a business that employed 30 or so people (significant in a small town), were heavily involved in the PTA, and his uncle was a county commissioner. They were very nice and very good people, but in a rinky-dink town, they were *somebody*, whereas my family merely existed.

When it came time for the science reward from a university I had already applied to, where the award winners were eligible for some pretty good scholarships, he got it. The science teacher and the principal were discussing who should get the award. The science teacher said that with the current year's science grades I would have the higher science average, plus I was going to the school. The principal said "no - the other one's grades were higher through junior year, so we'll give it to him." (The science teacher told me this afterwards. I liked that guy, and the story cemented in my mind what I knew all along - the principal was a dick.)

For valedictorian the "battle" was close. (Excuse the quotes around battle - the two of us were close friends, and over 30 years later still keep in touch. Neither of us was fighting for anything - we just went to school.) In the end, he was valedictorian, and I was salutatorian. Those posts were supposedly determined solely by grade point average over 9th - 12th grades. The interesting thing was when a group of us were called into the principal's office to be congratulated, I saw a list on his secretary's desk. It listed the top ten in in the class. My name was first, my friend's second - but the numbers "1" and "2" were scratched out, and "2" was written by my name and "1" by his.

Afterwards, my sisters went to the principal to ask why the numbers were switched, and to show how the averages were computed. They declined to show his computations, stating that it was a privacy issue (a good point). However, when they tried to show how they computed my final average, they ran through the computations two times, coming up with two different answers - neither of which matched my "official" average.

His family's factory is still there (his brother manages it), although it's been sold to an outside company. At one time there were over a dozen members of my family in that town - we've since left with little reason to return.

#33

Posted by: Katherine Lorraine, Chaton de la Mort Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 9:02 AM

@rwahrens:

*psst* Arkansas

#34

Posted by: TBP Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 9:02 AM

Reading comprehension fail on my part. I see she IS suing, or at least bringing some kind of action. I hope this makes the school district see the error of their ways (or at least to act as though they did in the future, whatever their personal feelings are).

#35

Posted by: No One Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 9:03 AM

Posted by: jamie.gillett

Isn't it possible that she was snubbed because she was nerdy and unpopular and that her skin colour didn't factor into it? Perhaps she would have been snubbed even if she had been white.

I think what happened was wrong but I'll put a big 'maybe' on the racism accusation.

A nerdy, black slut. No sorry, an uppity, nerdy, black, slut. No sorry, an uppity, nerdy, black, slutty, un-wed, welfare teenage mom.

Who somehow managed to get the highest GPA. Obviously she made a pact with satan.

#36

Posted by: Curlew Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 9:04 AM

#31 r y nggr / nggrlvr yrslf ?

[Nope. Banned. --pzm]

#37

Posted by: Akira MacKenzie Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 9:04 AM

@Curlew:

And we're sick of white-trash trolls with an over-inflated sense of privilege.

Go fuck yourself.

#38

Posted by: kellogg.david Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 9:06 AM

What Akira said.

#39

Posted by: jamie.gillett Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 9:07 AM

@Beatrice #21 It could be both, I was highlighting that there could have been reasons other than racism. As I've tried to point out I have never once claimed that this wasn't due to racism (or a combination of other factors).

As others have pointed out there's much more to the story than just what PZ wrote - I was lazy and just went by what PZ wrote, I will read it in full this evening.

#40

Posted by: devnull73.myopenid.com Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 9:08 AM

Andy @5: me too, count me in.

PZ: I had a similar experience. After winning the school science award (across all years), my science teacher remarked "well, finally you did something right". Teacher of the year.


Given that these administrators are oh-so-clever and have many excuses for their behaviour..... what's the play here? Beyond legal action?

I could wish that parents would start pulling their kids from the school, but that would require them to have some form of morality.

Near fatal beatings?

Seriously, how do you even start to elicit change in such a community?

#41

Posted by: Curlew Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 9:08 AM

#37 nthr nggr / nggrlvr

[Really, really banned. --pzm]

#42

Posted by: Illuminata, féministes fin de jeu Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 9:09 AM

Is there a scholarship for her? I'll def chip in.

#43

Posted by: Curlew Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 9:10 AM

n #37's wrld nggr = nccptbl, bt wht trsh k.

Fck ff yrslf nggr / nggrlvr

[I'd like to ban you even harder. --pzm]

#44

Posted by: devnull73.myopenid.com Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 9:10 AM

Curlew: Im a nigger-lover. What of it?

You have something to say?

#45

Posted by: Dianne Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 9:12 AM

I'm not sure "subtle" is the right word for this discrimination. The requirement for being valedictorian is having the highest GPA. Period. Not allowing her to be acknowledged valedictorian because of her race is racism of the most overt kind. Poor kid. About that college and/or legal action fund. I'm up for a contribution.

#46

Posted by: Curlew Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 9:12 AM

n #37's wrld nggr = nccptbl , bt wht trsh k.

Yh rght fck ff yrslf nggr / nggrlvr

www.rghttrth.typpd.cm

[I'm very sorry that I briefly thought paulbell100@hotmail.co.uk was just making a joke. IP banned now. --pzm]

#47

Posted by: RahXephon, un féminist sur la branche Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 9:12 AM

PZ, "joking" or not, can you eject Curlew now? Otherwise we'll never get the stench out of the carpets.

#48

Posted by: Le Havre en Chêne Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 9:13 AM

#Curlew

Thanks for adding your intellectual weight to this conversation. Now fuck off.

#49

Posted by: devnull73.myopenid.com Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 9:13 AM

/me smells the ban-hammer looming.

#50

Posted by: kellogg.david Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 9:13 AM

More to the story of course, but nothing I've heard even remotely mitigates the wrong. The context (such as the part about the school discouraging African-Americans from taking AP) has the ring of truth.

When I posted about this on FB, a friend (who doesn't have a racist bone in his body), pointed out that the wrong itself wasn't that great in the scheme of things. But, I replied, black kids get treated this way *all the time*. These numerous small injustices experienced by black youth are too often invisible to us white adults, and they have a cumulative effect.

What makes the story news is not that this (probably) happened, but that somebody is talking about it.

#51

Posted by: Akira MacKenzie Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 9:14 AM

@Curlew RE: 41.

Another racist/pile-of-shit racist. (Sorry for the redundancy.)

PZ? Banhammer if you please.

#52

Posted by: MrFire Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 9:15 AM

I call bullshit. This is pure speculation and innuendo. Unlike the rest of you, I shall wait for the facts to emerge before jumping on the race-card bandwagon.

Well let's see what facts we have:

She had the highest G.P.A.

The last African-American valedictorian in McGehee School District was in 1989.

Admittedly, there is some confusion. It seems she was not so much denied the valedictorianship as that she had share it.

With a white student who had lower grades.

Why do you think that might be, valis667? Is that insufficient information for you to form a working hypothesis? Are the side panels of your bandwagon very high indeed?

#53

Posted by: jamie.gillett Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 9:16 AM

A nerdy, black slut. No sorry, an uppity, nerdy, black, slut. No sorry, an uppity, nerdy, black, slutty, un-wed, welfare teenage mom.

Who somehow managed to get the highest GPA. Obviously she made a pact with satan.

Seems to me if you took black out of that there'd still be plenty of reasons why they may have pulled this bullshit.

#54

Posted by: Vicky Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 9:16 AM

It's incredible that a young person could do so well when also dealing with the responsibility of parenthood (single parenthood?) Congratulations to her. I wish I could say something like "move on, forget those jerks, you're better than them!" but it's not like she won't probably be faced with racism in the future too. Good on her and her family for speaking out against this absolute nonsense.

Curlew, I was going to try to say something sarcastic about how I, too, hate when people of colour don't get over their inflated perception of themselves as actual people like white people are, but even pretending to agree with you makes me sick to my stomach. So, instead, I'll just say fuck you, you sickening asshole.

#55

Posted by: Illuminata, féministes fin de jeu Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 9:17 AM

And we're sick of white-trash trolls with an over-inflated sense of privilege.

Go fuck yourself.

Aww, don't be so mean to the "ironic" racist. He's just getting his kicks pretending its edgy and ironic to post racist slurs on the internet.

Apparently, Thomas the Tank Engine is a repeat this morning.

#56

Posted by: kellogg.david Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 9:18 AM

And Curlew: do fuck off. I love lots of people, black and white and brown, but I'm pretty sure I hate you.

#57

Posted by: necronomikron Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 9:19 AM

Ahh, the racist piece of trash is banned. Or 'pretend racist who gives us no clues other than 'lol, j/k' that he's pretending, then continues to post more racist crap'.

#58

Posted by: SheepdogB Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 9:20 AM

Is it just me or do the arguments popping up searching for explanations other than racism sound suspiciously similar in form to the type of denialism used by the MRAs denying sexism in the Rebecca Watson case?

Am I seeing something that's not there or is there a structural "sameness" here? I'm aware of the phenomenon of apophenia and am wondering if that's what I might be experiencing.

#59

Posted by: Illuminata, féministes fin de jeu Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 9:20 AM

Seems to me if you took black out of that there'd still be plenty of reasons why they may have pulled this bullshit.

Yes, if you remove the most likely reason, there are still a lot of other likely reasons it could have happened.

with rapier wit like that . . . . .

#60

Posted by: RahXephon, un féminist sur la branche Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 9:22 AM

Am I seeing something that's not there or is there a structural "sameness" here?

In a feminist discussion, there are always going to be men who don't want to accept that they could ever be part of the problem. In a racist discussion, there will also be a contingent of white people (or whatever relevant race is privileged) who don't want to accept that they could also be part of the problem, and by "problem" I'm casting my net fairly wide; "I'm white and another white person did this" can be enough to unsettle people.

#61

Posted by: Audley Z. Darkheart OM, purveyor of candy and lies Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 9:22 AM

Jesus -fucking- Christ.

I am so sick of this constant cry of "but, but, but, we don't have all the sides of the story!"/"how do we know it was really real racism?" bullshit. Good god, will you ever stop trying to undermine people?

#62

Posted by: Rogut Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 9:23 AM

I agree with the tone here 100% - but am I the only one wondering if her name had anything to do with it...I mean - "Kymberly Wimberly" ?! Really ?!!

Still hope she gets to take them to the cleaners tho!!

Rog

#63

Posted by: devnull73.myopenid.com Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 9:24 AM

Worst. Troll. Ever.

#64

Posted by: necronomikron Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 9:26 AM

http://www.scribd.com/doc/60902397/wimberlypdf

One of the court documents, near as I can tell.

#65

Posted by: Illuminata, féministes fin de jeu Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 9:26 AM

Is it just me or do the arguments popping up searching for explanations other than racism sound suspiciously similar in form to the type of denialism used by the MRAs denying sexism in the Rebecca Watson case?

Not just you. It's the MO of privilege. The proof is in the pudding, as it were - have you noticed any consistancy in precisely who is constantly doing this? I'm not talking about specific posters, btw.

#66

Posted by: LarianLeQuella Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 9:26 AM

Have any of you been to towns like this on the deep south? This is actually quite subtle for them... In Crestview, FL, the town Mayor was a former Grand Dragon of the KKK, and the local yokels and rednecks were just fine with his type of thinking. Being an "other" is no excuse to deny an EARNED distinction. No matter what criteria for "other" is applied.

#67

Posted by: Akira MacKenzie Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 9:27 AM

Akira watches the Mighty PZ bring his powerful Ban-Hammer down upon the bigoted little vermin previously known as "Curlew."

SPLAT!

Ewwwww... he was full of corn!

#68

Posted by: KOPD Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 9:27 AM

Isn't it possible that she was snubbed because she was nerdy and unpopular

From the article:

after her daughter had been told she would be valedictorian, the mother heard "in the copy room that same day, other school personnel expressed concern that Wimberly's status as valedictorian might cause a 'big mess.'"

Yeah, having a nerdy unpopular person as valedictorian often causes a 'big mess'. *epic eye roll*

#69

Posted by: dancer_1955 Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 9:29 AM

And then they get assumed to be criminals and followed around in stores for the rest of their lives. Plus it's not just blacks that get this treatment, dark skin latinos also are subjected to it. I heard my mom complain about white women treating her like this.

#71

Posted by: Akira MacKenzie Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 9:32 AM

@Illuminata:

Apparently, Thomas the Tank Engine is a repeat this morning.

He seemed more the Teletubbies type to me.

#72

Posted by: rwahrens Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 9:33 AM

#33;

Is there any real difference between the two regarding racism? I didn't think so - it so easy to get the idiots mixed up...

#73

Posted by: KOPD Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 9:33 AM

Seems to me if you took black out of that there'd still be plenty of reasons why they may have pulled this bullshit.
And that's exactly how they manage to keep getting away with this bullshit. As long as the rest of us can agree that there were plenty of other (also shitty, and mostly misogynist) reasons to throw her under the bus, then by all means let's let them.
#74

Posted by: Curlew. Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 9:33 AM

www.rghttrth.typpd.cm

[Banned again. And now your favorite url has been added to the filter list, and anyone citing it will have their post held up for approval, which won't be coming. Good work, PaulBell100! --pzm]

#75

Posted by: RahXephon, un féminist sur la branche Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 9:34 AM

He seemed more the Teletubbies type to me.

Is "Teletubby Bye-Bye" printed on the Banhammer?

#76

Posted by: zyxek Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 9:39 AM

Here's a footnote from the lawsuit that says quite a bit about Ms. Wimberly.

Wimberly was out for three weeks of maternity leave during her fall semester of her junior year. She returned to school in time to take her semester exams and earned A’s in every class except for a “B” in English. She pulled her English grade back up to an “A” in the Spring semester.

A school system that doesn't see it as appropriate to put this young woman on a pedestal deserves all the scrutiny that comes with this kind of lawsuit.

I do think the race question is somewhat open, though. The defendant, Superintendent Thomas Gathen, is black. That doesn't mean he is incapable of favoring white students over black students, of course, but it does give pause. I think that, in the end, the reasoning will end up being her single mother status. This is no less despicable, in my opinion.

And even if that is the way administrators justified the decision to themselves, that does not excuse the pattern of staff favoring white students, if the accusations of the lawsuit prove factual (and the 'if' is still significant). This story touches on a lot of issues, and I'm glad PZ put it on my radar.

#77

Posted by: Lyr Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 9:41 AM

Both Curlew and the school in this story are very good examples of something we've seen alot of lately -- a privileged group's privilege has been threatened, so members of that group get angry. For them, it's just assumed that white people are better than blacks, so when a black person outperforms everyone else, they get scared and angry.

#78

Posted by: graham martin-royle Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 9:46 AM

This sort of shit is still happening today? It's 2011 ffs!

#79

Posted by: hackerwayneb Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 9:47 AM

I think it is more likely that this horrible action by the school was because she was a single mother and had nothing to do with her race.

#80

Posted by: Katherine Lorraine, Chaton de la Mort Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 9:49 AM

@graham martin-royle:

Women are still treated less important than men. Gays are still considered second-class citizens. Transgendered persons are still told they've got psychological problems.

Not really all that surprising considering. The religious right in the USA is still mired back in the 1700s.

#81

Posted by: PZ Myers Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 9:55 AM

What is it with all the people downplaying the role of race?

OK, she was regarded as less worthy because she was a woman who had a child.

Does that make it all better now?

#82

Posted by: KOPD Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 9:56 AM

@hackerwayneb

So the fact that they actively discriminate against blacks in that school, and that it hasn't had a black valedictorian in 22 years despite over 40% of the students being black are just coincidences, right? It had absolutely nothing at all to do with her race? Sounds like an extraordinary claim to me.

#83

Posted by: devnull73.myopenid.com Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 9:57 AM

hackerwayneb: oh, thats much better then


???

#84

Posted by: dancer_1955 Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 9:58 AM

Not just you. It's the MO of privilege. The proof is in the pudding, as it were - have you noticed any consistancy in precisely who is constantly doing this? I'm not talking about specific posters, btw.

I was guessing that those who didn't feel ANY discomfort about Schrodinger's Rapist were probably white

#85

Posted by: Josh, "Raquel Dommage," Porte-parole Gay Official Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 9:59 AM

A White/mansplainer's response: How u know it's racisms!@@!!!? Could be anythingz!!@@?? U dunnoo!! Stoopid bandwaginz?!

A reasonable person's response: this is a situation where race, class, and sexual policing intersect. Based on what we know, this young woman's situation was a "perfect storm" for a parochial small town. Not only was she black (strike one), but she had a child (which makes her a slut, strike two), and her family is likely not prominent and probably working class or barely above that (strike three).

Any one of these is "bad enough" by shitty small town mores. If she were merely "white trash" and pregnant, they might have done the same thing. But you can bet it's extra difficult for her because she's black; even the fact of her mother working for the school didn't mediate against this snub.

And no, the fact that the principal himself is black does not discharge the possibility of racism. As we've seen in vulgar detail these past few weeks, it's extremely common for members of oppressed classes to shit down the ladder on their fellow members to preserve their precarious status as favored tokens of the dominant class.

#86

Posted by: Audley Z. Darkheart OM, purveyor of candy and lies Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 9:59 AM

PZ:

What is it with all the people downplaying the role of race?

Best I can tell, it's a silencing tactic. If it's not really really real racism, then what happened to Kymberly Wimberly isn't a really really real problem and they don't have to discomfort themselves by trying to fix the problem (and examining their own privilage in the process).

#87

Posted by: bioscienceguy Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 10:00 AM

One nitpick about the news article.

"McGehee Secondary School is predominantly white, and 46 percent African-American, according to the complaint."

I don't think that school is 'predominantly white'. Not accounting for Hispanic or Asians, which at the least should constitute some small percentage (being generous that both the Hispanic and Asian student body is less than 3%, which I really doubt it). I would think that the school is BOTH predominately white and black in the student body population.

#88

Posted by: Bronze Dog Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 10:01 AM

Looks like I missed the bulk of the troll, who apparently hates it when fairly objective scholastic measures suggest we praise someone of a skin color he doesn't like.

Of course, drop-outs commonly rail against anyone who works to better themselves through education, especially in the face of adversity. Why? Because they caved in and gave up, often under far easier conditions. A good student who works through adversity is a threat to their ability to deny personal responsibility for their personal failure.

That's why racism is so popular among anti-intellectuals. It's depersonalizing.

#89

Posted by: Rick Miller Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 10:01 AM

I think the real issue is that it seems that she proves them wrong.

They have been preaching to kids for decades that teen pregnancy is what happens to wicked children who will never amount to anything in life. And whenever a teen falls into that category, social disapproval helps to fulfill this prophecy.

They don't want to give any honor to someone who has defied their bible-thumping morality and successfully overcome difficulties because they think she should be failing. And the fact that she's not failing contradicts their prejudice.

#90

Posted by: Jadehawk, cascadeuse féministe Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 10:02 AM

I was guessing that those who didn't feel ANY discomfort about Schrodinger's Rapist were probably white
yep; because rape culture doesn't exist for women of color, and it most certainly isn't worse. it's just a white woman problem.

what the everglorious fuck is wrong with people today?

#91

Posted by: zyxek Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 10:03 AM

OK, she was regarded as less worthy because she was a woman who had a child.

Of course not. It is worth looking into all angles of discrimination, though. If this turns out to be an issue of Bible Belt mores and misogyny more than race, it makes this story no less sickening.

And even then, the issue of race won't go away, considering the apparent informal segregation of the area, and the accusations of systematic favoritism towards white students.

#92

Posted by: unwept Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 10:06 AM

#80 It's not only in the USA, happens also in Ireland:

About 90 children could not find school places in the north Dublin suburb of Balbriggan, a town of more than 10,000 people with two elementary schools. Local educators called a meeting over the weekend for parents struggling to find places and said they were shocked to see only black children.
#93

Posted by: zyxek Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 10:07 AM

I meant to say in #91 "of course not" in reference to the idea (which PZ is not proposing, but referring to) that the single mom issue makes it less incendiary. That wasn't apparent from the quote, I now notice.

#94

Posted by: oihorse Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 10:08 AM

@graham martin-royle

There still remains lots of passive (not to mention overt) racism in my parent's and my grandparent's generation. These are the people that control the senior positions of power in business and government.

This is an issue that won't fade for a few more generations, if at all, given there are still hate groups actively recruiting youth into their ranks.

#95

Posted by: Katherine Lorraine, Chaton de la Mort Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 10:08 AM

@unwept:

Interesting from that article is also a religious discrimination - most of the schools being Roman Catholic and the black families being Protestant, Muslim, or non-religious.

#96

Posted by: KOPD Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 10:09 AM

Curlew,
What does your memory have to do with anything? Do you recall being born?

#97

Posted by: Bronze Dog Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 10:14 AM

Oh, yeah: Given the lack of black valedictorians over all those years, despite a big enough proportion of black students, I still think racism is by far the biggest cause. With her being a young mother, I'd say that probably made the usual racist 'no' of previous years into a 'Hell, no!' for this year.

Either way, the school's messed up, even if you ignore the red flags pointing to racism.

#98

Posted by: necronomikron Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 10:16 AM

@bioscience:
Non-black and non-white make up about 2% of the school population there. 8 hispanic, 2 asian, 1 native american, out of a body of over 500.

#99

Posted by: barfy Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 10:18 AM

PZ's comments seem to smell a little of confirmation bias.
Racism? Maybe.
It rings more true that they didn't want an unwed teen mommy...but, hey, I could be wrong.
When my daughter graduated high school, the administration finagled the weight given to the grades - treating a band class like an AP course - specifically to make sure that the valedictorian was a male muslim instead of a white female (not my daughter, BTW)
Why?
Because the white female came into the high school from a private middle school, instead of up the ranks from the public middle school, like the male muslim.
And this from a staunchly conservative, Bush-loving public Texas high school.
Bigotry, class envy, popularity - whatever. None of us play on a level playing field.

#100

Posted by: jamie.gillett Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 10:20 AM

three things:

1. #81, #86 etc. In no way shape or form am I trying to imply that if this wasn't racist then it's not bad. I was wondering what made people believe that this wasn't 'a bad thing happened to a black person' but 'a bad thing happened to a person because that person was black'.

2. Jumping into the conversation without reading the link was lazy and wrong on my part. Thank you to everybody who provided more information.

3. If something is fucked even if it's not racist, discussing whether or not it is racist is really a distraction from the issue. My bad.

#101

Posted by: mikerattlesnake Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 10:20 AM

@jamie.gilett

Ok jamie, you've been working so hard for it, so here it is: your "MOST SKEPTICAL" badge! It's nice and gold with blue ribbons coming off of it, and you get it because you are the skepticest of us all! You can pin it to your jacket and smile knowing that you're willing to ask the tough questions and not jump to conclusions like us simpletons. Meanwhile, the world is burning, but who cares, YOU GOT A MEDAL!

#102

Posted by: devnull73.myopenid.com Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 10:21 AM

barfy: so, theyre assholes, we just need to identify the particular brand of asshole?

and yep - everyone faces some sort of bullshit. Gotta call it out whereever you see it though.

#103

Posted by: GravityIsJustATheory Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 10:21 AM

Doesn't that bring up those fond memories of high school? We all knew who the anointed ones were, the kids who were typically the children of the wealthier members of the community, who had the connections, who had the right image, who associated with the right other kids, who were in the right clubs.

Is that typical for American schools?

It sounds completely alien by my (British) experience.

#104

Posted by: necronomikron Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 10:23 AM

@Gravity:

That's fairly typical. There are a lot of cliques in high school, and the more popular ones will typically have some jerkasses who will pick on the less popular.

Eg. the nerdy types who get picked on, teased, bullied, etc.

#105

Posted by: Zinc Avenger Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 10:25 AM

Shall we coin the term "whitesplain" to describe how someone points out that something is absolutely positively possibly not racist therefore it can't be racist racist and by the way we have a black president now so we're post-racial and by the way some of my bestest friends are African Americans?

#106

Posted by: StevoR Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 10:27 AM

But wasn't one of the teletubbies gay? ;-)

I'm guessing Curlew - or should we call him Paul Bell? - was a severe case of posting drunk maybe?

Not that that's a good excuse or anything if true.

I've posted drunk many times & never used the 'n-word.'

I will make the one observation that its kinda .. interesting~ish maybe .. that that one racist term has now become the Worst and Least forgivable term ever (except in rap music where ever second word is the 'n' one or so I gather possibly wrongly) even on a blog where the 'f' & 'c' words are fine. NOT saying the banhammer struck wrongly or anything though, just that it says something about our society and where we've come from and on our modern taboos etc .. Now such a sensitive and explosive topic.

Oh & what happened to Kymberly Wimberly is appalling and disgraceful and the school should be ashamed of themselves - as should her parents with that name choice. That can't have helped here. Remarkable woman to overcome all the obstacles and do as well as she has - surprised she hasn't changed her name by deed poll though! :-(

#107

Posted by: ekwhite Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 10:30 AM

PZ: thanks for banning the racist troll. I grew up in the segregated South, and the N word is especially offensive to me.

Jamie Gillete - this may have some sexist element to it (unwed mother - how shocking!), but if she was white, there would have been no question about it. The principal was a genteel racist, but a racist none the less - this type of racist is so common among the Southern elite. They would never use the N word, like our recently banned troll (they would use "those types" instead), but they are every bit as racist as your tobacco chewing hood wearing redneck.

#108

Posted by: necronomikron Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 10:30 AM

Mildly off-topic (just mildly), but apparently, the 'wealth' gap: that is, total value of owned property, between the races is higher than ever since the economic downturn:

http://pewsocialtrends.org/2011/07/26/wealth-gaps-rise-to-record-highs-between-whites-blacks-hispanics/

#109

Posted by: unwept Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 10:31 AM

Katherine @ 95.
Yep. Interesting in the same way some people's reactions here also are. As in: it's used to justify what is in all probability a racist reaction.
From the Guardian article on the same topic:

"When I contacted one particular school to see if they had a place for Jordan I was told 'We only pick our own' ...

Plausible deniability and all that...

#110

Posted by: KOPD Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 10:32 AM

barfy

It rings more true that they didn't want an unwed teen mommy
Fine, present evidence. We already have the fact that there hasn't been a black valedictorian there in 22 years, despite a nearly even mix of white and black students. Do you have evidence that being a teen mommy was an even bigger strike against her?

And you know what, even if that's true, then they can still go fuck themselves.

#111

Posted by: StevoR Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 10:35 AM

PS. We are sure this whole story is legitimate and not a Poe / myth are we?

This *is* for real is it?

#112

Posted by: Audley Z. Darkheart OM, purveyor of candy and lies Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 10:36 AM

To all of those who are hell bent on whitesplainin'*: Yes, the fact that she is a teen mom is part of issue here, but to say "see? It's not racism, it's misogyny!" isn't helping. Stop trying to undermine the fact that race played a huge fucking roll in the way Kymberly Wimberly was treated.

*Stolen.

#113

Posted by: dancer_1955 Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 10:37 AM

yep; because rape culture doesn't exist for women of color, and it most certainly isn't worse. it's just a white woman problem.

Where did I say any of this?

I can see where SR is useful for an individual determining risk.

My fear is this will reinforce the idea that it is ok to view all of a group of people as potential criminals. I have heard similar arguments made to justify following people of color to prevent shoplifting.

#114

Posted by: KOPD Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 10:39 AM

Well, StevoR,

Considering that #64 linked to a 9-page court document on the case, if it's a Poe it's an elaborate one.

#115

Posted by: Katherine Lorraine, Chaton de la Mort Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 10:43 AM

@unwept:

Oh, I didn't mean to downplay the racist angle. It certainly is racist, but what's also interesting to me is the religious discrimination angle. It's kind of a twofer.

#116

Posted by: StevoR Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 10:46 AM

@ 90. Jadehawk, cascadeuse féministe | July 26, 2011 10:02 AM

what the everglorious fuck is wrong with people today?

Where do we start and how long do you have?

#117

Posted by: Beatrice, anormalement indécente Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 10:49 AM

Just so I don't get lumped with racism deniers, maybe I should explain that when I mentioned that she was also a teen mother, I didn't mean to imply that what the school did wasn't racism. From my point of view, it just made the school look even worse, on top of the racism accusation. Being a teen mother makes her success even more impressive which in turn makes school's actions worse. Other than that, I absolutely agree that the school seems to have a history of racism and it's quite obvious that this action was also an example of racism.

#118

Posted by: Janine, The Little Top Of Venom, OM Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 10:49 AM

KOPD, considering that CupcakoR is speculating that the racist might be drunk and is whining that the use of the word nigger is frowned upon here while fuck and (I am assuming.) cunt are used here. And if this is so, CupcakoR is ignoring the endless debates about the use of the word cunt.

(I might be wrong, but that is why one should not use 'c' word.)

As it stands, even though CupcakoR says that, if true, it is wrong but still no big fucking deal.

Assclam.

#119

Posted by: Janine, The Little Top Of Venom, OM Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 10:52 AM

Where do we start and how long do you have?

CupcakoR, how long will it take if we start with you?

#120

Posted by: The Pint Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 10:55 AM

Miss Wimberly is a black teen mother in a public high school in the south whose hard work has resulted in the highest GPA out of her entire class. Jebus, the lowest grade she got after having her child was a B in English! In what fucking world isn't this a reason to celebrate her achievement? WTF is wrong with those school officials??

I mean, I can see a variety of reasons the school wouldn't want her to be in the spotlight because she's black, she's a teen mother, and she's STILL managed to stomp on every single one of their prejudices - and they're all wrong, obviously. But just because part of the school's actions can be attributed to prejudice against single teen mothers, doesn't mean that her race had nothing to do with it, especially considering the student body make up, the fact there hasn't been a black valedictorian in over 2 decades, the conversation her mother overheard and that black students have apparently been regularly discouraged from taking honors courses. Discrimination isn't a zero sum game in which you can be discriminated against for being a teen mom OR being black (but it can't be both!) and trying to argue that it has nothing to do with her being black or maybe not as much with her being black as being a teen mom is only trying to brush away the fact that race did have a part to play in this.

#121

Posted by: AshPlant Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 10:55 AM

I would say that even if it's not 'directly because of racism' and and there were (entirely speculative) other reasons, such as her being less popular...can we write off that lack of popularity being down to, oh I don't know, some form of discrimination?

Also, PZ, why did you have to ban Curlew quite so much? Shouldn't once be enough?

#122

Posted by: StevoR Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 10:56 AM

@114. KOPD : Yeah, I guess, just ..wow. I find this hard to believe. Guess that reflects on me and how shelteted I am and all but anyhow. [Shrug.]

I do find her name (which still rings the "You've gotta be kidding!" bell for me although yeah strange names do exist) hard to accept too - although that is a side issue and, yeah, the combination of racism and misogny and single-teen motherhood (& name?) all striking against Ms Wimberly. Not good.

I hope Ms Wimberly goes on to big and bright things. Good on her. Tough life. She must be an exceedingly strong and very intelligent individual.

Also Little Rock, correct me if I'm wrong please, but wasn't that where Bill Clinton came from?


#123

Posted by: toth Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 10:58 AM

This is a horrible story, but on a complete tangent...her name is Kymberly Wimberly? Seriously?

#124

Posted by: PZ Myers Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 11:02 AM

Curlew has taken to morphing now. There are a bunch of other deletions you've missed.

#125

Posted by: natural cynic Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 11:03 AM

Nasty.
Maybe the two white kids were not Bob and Janet, but Brad and Janet. Then they will get their comeuppance at a strange mansion on some dark and stormy night.

#126

Posted by: Dude... Real Men Watch Ponies! Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 11:04 AM

@toth

This is a horrible story, but on a complete tangent...her name is Kymberly Wimberly? Seriously?

What's wrong with that name?
It rhymes nicely.
Okay, it's a bit of a tongue twister, but still, it's nice.

#127

Posted by: StevoR Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 11:05 AM

@119. Janine, The Little Top Of Venom, OM | July 26, 2011 10:52 AM

"Where do we start and how long do you have?" CupcakoR, how long will it take if we start with you?

Oh ages and ages no doubt! ;-)

I'm not claiming perfection or being anything but messed up myself.

#128

Posted by: MrFire Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 11:06 AM

For those who might care, I noticed that my comment @12 could be construed as whitesplainin'.

Therefore I would like to emphasize that I in no way wish to promote the idea that her status as a teen mother was necessarily a more important factor than her color.

#129

Posted by: Dude... Real Men Watch Ponies! Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 11:06 AM

@natural cynic
#125

Nasty.
Maybe the two white kids were not Bob and Janet, but Brad and Janet. Then they will get their comeuppance at a strange mansion on some dark and stormy night.

Don't blame the kids for what the school administrator did.

#130

Posted by: Nerd of Redhead, OM Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 11:08 AM

Also, PZ, why did you have to ban Curlew quite so much? Shouldn't once be enough?
The idjit kept trying to circumvent the block. Typical of loudmouthed bigots.
#131

Posted by: Janine, The Little Top Of Venom, OM Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 11:12 AM

I will make the one observation that its kinda .. interesting~ish maybe .. that that one racist term has now become the Worst and Least forgivable term ever (except in rap music where ever second word is the 'n' one or so I gather possibly wrongly) even on a blog where the 'f' & 'c' words are fine. NOT saying the banhammer struck wrongly or anything though, just that it says something about our society and where we've come from and on our modern taboos etc .. Now such a sensitive and explosive topic.

Damned fucking straight, CupcakoR, that you are not perfect. This is fucking tone trolling.

Take that fucking winking emoticon, stick it up the ass of a dead porcupine and you know the rest.

#132

Posted by: Dude... Real Men Watch Ponies! Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 11:13 AM

@natural cynic
#125

Nasty.
Maybe the two white kids were not Bob and Janet, but Brad and Janet. Then they will get their comeuppance at a strange mansion on some dark and stormy night.

Don't blame the kids for what the school administrator did.

#133

Posted by: Brownian, Most Vicious & Petty of Pharyngulites Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 11:18 AM

Hmm. I'm late to the party. But I see it didn't take long to get to the "Are we sure it's racism? I mean, I'm against racism, but I don't want to tar a situation with racism unless we're 100%, absolutely sure, including have a signed confession from the transgressors indicating that they acted out of hatred for blacks alone and no other possible reason because the worst crime imaginable is accusing someone or a situation of racism and we'd rather let a million minorities get lynched than accuse a single innocent man of bigotry" stage.

Since there's nothing left to do but vainly attempt to convince a dozen recalcitrant asses that racism exists, is systematic, and more often than not doesn't involve easily identifiable slurs (bigots aren't completely stupid with respect to the law and public opinion—that's creationists), I just want to note that whenever my mother would get after me to do my homework or study, I'd respond with, "Why Mom? So I can have a perfect GPA, get elected valedictorian and then get run down by a drunk driver on graduation night? Is that what you want? Only the good die young, Mom, only the good die young."

It's a shame that smartassery isn't scholastically recognised.

#134

Posted by: Dude... Real Men Watch Ponies! Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 11:19 AM

@natural cynic
#125

Nasty.
Maybe the two white kids were not Bob and Janet, but Brad and Janet. Then they will get their comeuppance at a strange mansion on some dark and stormy night.

Don't blame the kids for what the school administrator did.

#135

Posted by: StevoR Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 11:23 AM

@118. Janine, The Little Top Of Venom, OM | July 26, 2011 10:49 AM

KOPD, considering that CupcakoR is speculating that the racist might be drunk and is whining that the use of the word nigger is frowned upon here

Observing NOT whining.

I'm NOT saying we should use the 'n' word just pointing out the cultural oddity and shift. A side reflection on our culture as it is.

Racism is shit. I don't judge people by their skin colour but by their actions. I shouldn't need to say that because it should be assumed as axiomatic but it seems you are misunderstanding what I've said.

...while fuck and (I am assuming.) cunt are used here. And if this is so, CupcakoR is ignoring the endless debates about the use of the word cunt.(I might be wrong, but that is why one should not use 'c' word.)

Was that debate here or is one of us getting our blogs mixed up? Possibly me, or possibly not. I thought Greg Laden's blog had that big debate. Maybe here too and I missed it? Anyhow, doesn't matter. I'm not using the 'c' word or the 'n' word myself nor am I advising others to do so.

Keep calling me "cupcakeo" and I might be tempted to respond in kind, Janinemabean! ;-P

As it stands, even though CupcakoR says that, if true, it is wrong but still no big fucking deal.

Is anything online ever that big a deal? ;-)

Just folks yakking online and getting all hot-&-bothered as per usual. In a week or month will anyone care?

#136

Posted by: Brownian, Most Vicious & Petty of Pharyngulites Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 11:23 AM

Don't blame the kids for what the school administrator did.

Dude, natural cynic is taking us through a time warp...again.

#137

Posted by: Brownian, Most Vicious & Petty of Pharyngulites Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 11:30 AM

Is anything online ever that big a deal?

That's what you're going with? That's your big defence?

You do realise this happened in Arkansas, not www.arkansas.com, right?

Anyways, since you don't care, you won't mind shutting your yap on this issue then, won't you?

#138

Posted by: chigau (◦_◦) Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 11:33 AM

StevoR
It was not the mere presence of the word "nigger" that got Curlew banned.
It's comments still exist in a disemvowelled form and are readable.
---
Is anyone else going to comment on Kymberly Wimberly's name?
'cause those comments sure are Clever™ .

#139

Posted by: twitchy little bastard Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 11:33 AM

@StevoR

I will make the one observation that its kinda .. interesting~ish maybe .. that that one racist term has now become the Worst and Least forgivable term ever (except in rap music where ever second word is the 'n' one or so I gather possibly wrongly) even on a blog where the 'f' & 'c' words are fine. NOT saying the banhammer struck wrongly or anything though, just that it says something about our society and where we've come from and on our modern taboos etc .. Now such a sensitive and explosive topic.

Crackah, what?!

As soon as we whitefolk are enslaved, degraded, discriminated, and turned into second-class citizens for a considerable length of time (about two centuries should do it); then, I think, we'll have a claim to a derogatory term originally used by our oppressors to make us feel less than human, while simultaneously forbidding them from using it.

Seriously, I see this bullshit quite frequently from whitesplainers everywhere I go (fuckin' Utah). It's as though they think that we've been banned from something really, really cool!

To all those who might want to ask: "How come we're not allowed to say the word?"

I respond with this: "If you understand the context, then why would you want to?"

#140

Posted by: Brownian, Most Vicious & Petty of Pharyngulites Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 11:37 AM

Exactly right. Some people here need a chill pill.

That is one motherfucking succinct analysis.

HOW COME WE HAVEN'T GIVEN YOU ALL THE NOBELS?

#141

Posted by: KOPD Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 11:38 AM

Chigau,

Don't forget to put a ; at the end of your HTML entities, or else they'll look pretty funny to people using certain browsers.

#142

Posted by: Electrabotanical Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 11:38 AM

I don't know if anyone has said this already in this thread, but it reminds of the Birther Movement. The attempt to undermine and discredit folks that some feel are undeserving of honors happens in many different ways.

#143

Posted by: Janine, The Little Top Of Venom, OM Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 11:40 AM

I'm NOT saying we should use the 'n' word just pointing out the cultural oddity and shift. A side reflection on our culture as it is.

That is more than a cultural oddity. Interesting that white people from the US were confronted with the idea that calling a black person a nigger is dehumanizing.

Racism is shit. I don't judge people by their skin colour but by their actions. I shouldn't need to say that because it should be assumed as axiomatic but it seems you are misunderstanding what I've said.

And yet you felt the need to speculate that the racist might have been drunk and that PZ was too quick to use the banhammer. You are making it very easy for me to judge you.

Was that debate here or is one of us getting our blogs mixed up? Possibly me, or possibly not. I thought Greg Laden's blog had that big debate. Maybe here too and I missed it? Anyhow, doesn't matter. I'm not using the 'c' word or the 'n' word myself nor am I advising others to do so.

Sack of shit, you were the one who fucking brought it up. I just called you on it.

Keep calling me "cupcakeo" and I might be tempted to respond in kind, Janinemabean!

Cannot even be bothered to get what I called you right. Call me what you want, I have been called much worse.

Just folks yakking online and getting all hot-&-bothered as per usual. In a week or month will anyone care?

Yeah, fucking hot and bothered about a real situation, one that effects real people. This is something that many people have to deal with nevery fucking day of their lives. Years from now, people will still care about racists actions. That is because it is fucking real.

Fuck you and the fucking dead porcupine you rode in on.

#144

Posted by: Duth Olec Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 11:43 AM

Sounds more like invaledictorian!

#145

Posted by: Ms. Daisy Cutter, Vile Creature Powered Entirely By Bitter Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 11:43 AM

Dude has obviously never done the Time Warp. Even once.

#146

Posted by: Brownian, Most Vicious & Petty of Pharyngulites Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 11:43 AM

Oh, I see Hedgehope was a morph.

You know what wouldn't be a big deal? Grabbing another fucking bigot by the feet and dashing his head against the rocks.

Then, we could deliver the unfortunate news to his family.

"Dear Bigot's family," we'd start, "Earlier today, your son met with a big ol' Meh."

They'd know exactly what we meant.

"No biggie," they'd say. "Did this happen online?"

"It started there. But then we were all overcome with a fit of ennui and it carried into real life."

"Whatevs."

"I'm moved just enough to remark that you're taking this well."

"We took chill pills. In a week or so we'll have moved on."

#147

Posted by: Ms. Daisy Cutter, Vile Creature Powered Entirely By Bitter Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 11:46 AM

You know what wouldn't be a big deal? Grabbing another fucking bigot by the feet and dashing his head against the rocks.
Book of Brownian, 15:23-25
#148

Posted by: halfdeaddavid Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 11:50 AM

"Is that typical for American schools?"

My high school sucked we had two Valedictorians one male one female. I was in the guys English class and he could barely read but he was captain of the football team and that counts as reading right? The girl was really smart and actually deserved it, its a shame she had to share the stage with this big idiot.

#149

Posted by: AshPlant Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 11:52 AM

Bruce:

Oh dear.
Oh deary, deary me.

Enjoy.

#150

Posted by: Janine, The Little Top Of Venom, OM Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 11:53 AM

Bruce, fucking explain yourself NOW!

#151

Posted by: chigau (◦_◦) Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 11:57 AM

KOPD
huh.
thanks.
Firefox and Safari let me get away without the ;
it looks OK on them.
but not Explorer.
I will try not to be so sloppy/lazy from now on.

#152

Posted by: Josh, "Raquel Dommage," Porte-parole Gay Official Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 11:58 AM

Fuck you Bruce, and take your fucking misogyny with you. It won't wash here, and the men won't put up with it any more than the women you slander will. Get the fuck out.

#153

Posted by: Illuminata, féministes fin de jeu Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 11:58 AM

"PMT ?:

Tee hee, Isn't Bruce's blatant sexism so cute, ladies!

Of course, the only reason women get upset about anything douchey men do is cuz they're on their periods!

teehee! sexism is so funny!

#154

Posted by: Zugswang Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 11:58 AM

Man, I really hope this girl gets justice. Didn't we go through something like this a little while ago with Damon Fowler?

This brings back really unpleasant memories for me from high school, too. I graduated in the top 5% of a class of about 450, but actually getting through high school was perhaps the worst part of my life.

When it came to light that I was an atheist, the principal, a hardline Catholic, privately threatened me with expulsion on the grounds of “I’ll find a reason.” (not verbatim, but that was the tone) Because threats are a great way to convert people. And I couldn’t complain to anyone; he was a prominent figure in the community, so no one was going to believe me. My dad, also Catholic, was hardly supportive and treated my lack of belief like some childish rebellion, and told me to just “go through the motions”. I didn’t , so I took shit from admins and classmates who took every opportunity to make it known that I was a pariah. The only thing that really kept me going was the support of some of my teachers and what, at the time, was a seething hatred I had of much of the school's administration. I was basically motivated to do well academically and shove it down their throats.

I eventually graduated from a place where we were mutually glad to be rid of each other. But real kicker? The school has sent me solicitations for money every year for the last 10 years, so I get to be reminded annually of the shit I put up with for 3 years.

#155

Posted by: Beatrice, anormalement indécente Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 11:59 AM

Bruce,
Now that you've made such a valuable contribution to the conversation, kindly fuck off.

#156

Posted by: Janine, The Little Top Of Venom, OM Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 12:01 PM

Bruce, I was pointing out to a cupcake that he was being an idiot. And you fucking tell me I should chill.

Hey, let us all make up imaginary excuses for racism and let us tell those who call on that bullshit that they are over reacting.

Here is my suggestion. You take the chill pill. Push it down the throat of a decaying porcupine and use the said porcupine as a suppository.

#157

Posted by: Matt "Nora" Penfold Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 12:04 PM

Bruce,

Tell me, how much trying did you have to become a sexist misogynist arsehole ? Does it come naturally to you, or do you have to work at being a total douchebag ?

#158

Posted by: Janine, The Little Top Of Venom, OM Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 12:06 PM

Brucecake, your fucking display of sexism and you implied support of racism shows off that you are fucking slime of the lowest order.

Also, dipshit, use of the word fuck says nothing about the intelligence of the person.

Fucking tone troll.

#159

Posted by: Matt "Nora" Penfold Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 12:07 PM

This is not going to end well for Bruce. Which is good.

#160

Posted by: badandfierce Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 12:07 PM

I'd love to put this away to Alabama, but I have this problem where I clearly remember MY high school, a diverse prep school in the theoretically rather progressive City of Chicago. We had three kinds of students; the rich brats whose parents insisted quite successfully that they never receive a poor grade or a moment's discipline, the middle-class kids whose families made sacrifices and who did have to study hard and toe the line, and the kids on scholarships who were under the metaphorical whip socially and academically every moment of every day. The classism was overt and shameless, the racism tied in much more subtle, of course.

The best example I have is, oddly, based in transportation. People commuted from all over to get to school. Most of the suburban kids (on average rich, white) drove to school or, if a bit less privileged, took the privately-run commuter trains. Most of the city kids (on average poor, nonwhite) took subway trains or buses. The school had a ridiculously draconian tardy policy.

If there was an accident or even just a big traffic jam on one of the highways you'd take to drive to school, the administration would waive tardiness. But woe betide you if you took public transit. Almost everyone I know who depended on the CTA to get to school was on tardy probation and would wind up in detention if they were a minute late. One day, four or five subway lines were essentially shut down by a huge derailment. Those few stalwart souls who fought their way to school? Instant detention.

I could go on. The strangely white cast of every school play, my friend's experience qualifying for an African American scholarship program... But it would never end. Anyway, don't dismiss Alabama as the problem, kids.

#161

Posted by: AshPlant Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 12:08 PM

I know right Bruce? Who'd be so rude as to tell someone who badly needs to be told to go fuck himself, to go fuck himself? Swearing is NEVER appropriate, even when it's exactly the right response to an extremely sad little man. I'm in total agreement with you. The amount of ignorance on display in recent comments is shocking.

#162

Posted by: KOPD Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 12:09 PM

The liberal use of the f word displays ignorance of the highest order.
Did you major in non sequiturs, or are you still studying?
#163

Posted by: Dude... Real Men Watch Ponies! Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 12:09 PM

Okay... why do people here keep letting random troll derail conversations?

Come-on, at least make troll work for it. Force them to use more nuances, to disguise their trolling attempt as reasonable arguments.

Just "PMT?". Really?

It should've been something like this.

"Janine's posts appears to carry a lot of hostility at a certain time of the month.

Anyone know why that is?"

#164

Posted by: Beatrice, anormalement indécente Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 12:10 PM

Offering PMT as the one and only counterargument on the other hand, shows quite a lot about the person.
Sorry, fucking counterargument.
Fuck off, Bruce.

#165

Posted by: Illuminata, féministes fin de jeu Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 12:11 PM

The liberal use of the f word displays ignorance of the highest order.

Translation: I got my ass handed to me! Time to tone troll, cuz I got nuthin'.

#166

Posted by: Brownian, Most Vicious & Petty of Pharyngulites Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 12:11 PM

The liberal use of the f word displays ignorance of the highest order.

From the guy who uses 'Tee-hee PMT' as a retort? I'll be sure to jot that down for handy reference.

#167

Posted by: Janine, The Little Top Of Venom, OM Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 12:12 PM

I'd love to put this away to Alabama, but I have this problem where I clearly remember MY high school, a diverse prep school in the theoretically rather progressive City of Chicago.

Progressive? My father's family was part of the white flight out of the south side of Chicago.

#168

Posted by: reproductionfails Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 12:14 PM

@Bruce: Stop digging.

#169

Posted by: Katherine Lorraine, Chaton de la Mort Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 12:15 PM

@Bruce:

What's wrong with the word "fuck"?

#170

Posted by: Illuminata, féministes fin de jeu Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 12:15 PM

why do people here keep letting random troll derail conversations?

*facepalm*

lolsob.

#171

Posted by: Janine, The Little Top Of Venom, OM Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 12:15 PM

Brucecake, I do not need to know your opinion about genocide to know that you are a waste of fucking meat.

#172

Posted by: Josh, "Raquel Dommage," Porte-parole Gay Official Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 12:16 PM

1. NOT Alabama.

2. NOT Alabama.

3. It was Arkansas

4. Read 1-3 and repeat

5. Stop with the "don't tar a whole state with the same brush" stuff. Everyone knows that all the population in a state isn't ignorant. It is still true---yes it is, and you know it, so stop acting as if you don't---that certain states, mostly Southern, are far more likely to hold retrograde views on just about everything.

6. If you're one of those progressive people in a medieval state, then we're not talking about you and in fact we sympathize with you.

Christ. I'm gonna start automatically killfiling the phrases "broad brush" and "lump me in."

#173

Posted by: The Chimp's Raging Id Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 12:16 PM

Something about the stench of Brucey Baby's Eau de Troll tells me he's well versed in which buttons to push in order to enrage Pharyngulites. I think the sad little meatsack is best ignored and left to count the spiders in his mother's basement.

#174

Posted by: Bernard Bumner Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 12:17 PM

Bruce is a very, very poor troll. Really not much of an effort at all.

#175

Posted by: Brownian, Most Vicious & Petty of Pharyngulites Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 12:17 PM

Here is my suggestion. You take the chill pill. Push it down the throat of a decaying porcupine and use the said porcupine as a suppository.

But they never do that, which is why I'm campaigning for the "Send Brownian to the Troll's House for a Polite, Personal Discussion" fund. Some things are only learned through experience.

On another note, I suspect shitstains from ERVs place are earning themselves 'street cred' by coming here expressely to get banned.

Because having PZ tell you to take your racial slurs and PMS jokes elsewhere is exactly like being Nelson Mandela.

#176

Posted by: KOPD Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 12:19 PM

Josh,

You can lump me in with the folks who get annoyed about 'broad brush' complaints.

#177

Posted by: pilotkono Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 12:19 PM

When will the PZMyers fan-boys grow up?

When you guys start to ignore "Bruce," you will demonstrate your ability to mature, and contribute to the conversation.

It's trite, but when you people "feed" the troll, it get's it's nuts off, and basks in that warm fuzzy feeling we all get after an especially gratifying orgasm.

#178

Posted by: Josh, "Raquel Dommage," Porte-parole Gay Official Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 12:21 PM

KOPD: Thanks, that gave me a badly needed LOL! I've been thinking about writing a whole blog post about it (there are interesting parallels in many spheres of business), but I get too pissed to type correctly.

#179

Posted by: Janine, The Little Top Of Venom, OM Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 12:21 PM

Pilotkono, fucking leave and take Brucecake with you.

#180

Posted by: Katherine Lorraine, Chaton de la Mort Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 12:23 PM

@pilotkono:

You're right, we should ignore trolls.

/ignored

#181

Posted by: Brownian, Most Vicious & Petty of Pharyngulites Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 12:23 PM

When will the PZMyers fan-boys grow up?

I began to ignore you after this line. What were you saying?

#182

Posted by: Illuminata, féministes fin de jeu Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 12:24 PM

Because having PZ tell you to take your racial slurs and PMS jokes elsewhere is exactly like being Nelson Mandela.

Which, makes sense, if you're a raging bigot like the ERV slimepit welcomes.

If you hate other people so much that the casual use of bigotry to impress your bigot internet buddies sounds like an actually good way to use your time, this is how you'd behave.

Damnit, now I feel sorry for the little bigot.

#183

Posted by: KOPD Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 12:25 PM

Bruce
Would it be a big achievement for you to not be the lowest order?


pilotkono,
Feel free to close your browser window now.

#184

Posted by: Ing: PhD Trollologist Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 12:29 PM

5. Stop with the "don't tar a whole state with the same brush" stuff. Everyone knows that all the population in a state isn't ignorant. It is still true---yes it is, and you know it, so stop acting as if you don't---that certain states, mostly Southern, are far more likely to hold retrograde views on just about everything.

6. If you're one of those progressive people in a medieval state, then we're not talking about you and in fact we sympathize with you.

Christ. I'm gonna start automatically killfiling the phrases "broad brush" and "lump me in."

IE the "Not all christians..." and "Why do you hate all men" etc etc etc arguments. Denial of Statistical Social Trends is a sub category of the Retreat to Soliphcism strategy of debate.

#185

Posted by: KOPD Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 12:29 PM

Bruce,

I have a feeling you're wrong on many occasions.

#186

Posted by: Illuminata, féministes fin de jeu Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 12:29 PM

Oh Bruce, you and your bigotry are so funny! I mean, who can't get enough of the same stale, flaccid, weak jokes that our great-great-great-great-great-grandfathers told!

How edgy and cool you are, being completely unable to not be a bigot! Tee hee!

#187

Posted by: Janine, The Little Top Of Venom, OM Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 12:29 PM

Brucecake, are you natural dense or do you have to fucking work at it? My comtempt for you has not abated. In fact, I dislike you more now then I did ten minutes ago.

Stick you head in a freezer.

#188

Posted by: Janine, The Little Top Of Venom, OM Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 12:31 PM

Fucking spellcheck, how does it work?

#189

Posted by: Bronze Dog Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 12:31 PM

I'm fine with using the fuck-word. As far as I know, there's no stigma of discriminatory use that comes along with it. It's about as generic a curse word as you can get, useable for any extreme in any context the user feels like using strong language. If someone would like to cite a reliable source that says otherwise, I'll reconsider my stance.

The N- and C- words, however, are steeped in the history of racism and sexism, respectively. The contexts they can be used in seem pretty well restricted by the nature of the words. They carry a LOT of cultural baggage I never want to associate my opinions with. That's why I'll never use them.

For the use of the N-word and its variant that ends in -a, as it's used by some black people, I have been unable to figure out if any consensus exists on intention and meaning, so I steer clear of using it. I doubt it'll end up losing the stigma anytime soon.

And that, dear trolls, is why I consider those words to be much, much more profane and hurtful than the fuck-word.

#190

Posted by: Matt "Nora" Penfold Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 12:32 PM

Well done Janine , you seemed to have chilled a bit , so on this occasion I must have been wrong about the reason for your ire.

Go fuck yourself.

#191

Posted by: Paul W., OM Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 12:34 PM

I think some people are being too hard on Jamie.

You don't have to think racism isn't a problem at the school, or even think that it hasn't been a systematic problem for Ms. Wimberley in particular, to think that maybe the co-valedictorian thing in particular wasn't based on her race, but on her being an unwed mother.

I think it's likely that there's systematic racism at the school, and that Ms. Wimberley herself has been one of its victims---e.g., faculty trying but failing to dissuade her from taking the AP classes that give you a chance to be valedictorian---but I still think it's quite plausible that the unwed mother thing was both necessary and sufficient to cause the decision to deny her sole valedictorian status.

The fact that no black student has been valedictorian at the 46 percent black school for decades is pretty good statistical evidence that something is wrong, but it's not nearly as good evidence of what exactly is wrong, or whether that's what determined this particular event.

It may well be that if she'd been a white unwed mother, the same thing would have happened, and if she'd been black and not an unwed mother, it wouldn't have.

That is in no way a denial of the importance of racism, or the likelihood or seriousness of racism at that particular school, or even that this particular black girl has been a victim of racism there.

It's not even a denial that race was the crucial factor in this particular event. It may well have been, but it may well not have been.

Even if Ms. Wimberley has been treated in racist ways at the school---and I'd guess she has---she may have overcome that disadvantage and gotten dinged for something else stupidly wrong this time.

I find that plausible. Many racists often distinguish between the run-of-the-mill Other and the "good ones," and it may be that Ms. Wimberley has shown herself to be one of the "good ones," who even many racist faculty would feel honor bound or even delighted to give her due. (Just as they'll admire Michael Jordan or Colin Powell while thinking other run-of-the-mill blacks are inferior to whites.) It happens. It happens fair bit, though bias against all blacks happens a fair bit too.

The bottom line there is that we're on shaky ground assuming that race was an important factor in this particular event, given that there is another factor that's quite sufficient to explain it.

Saying that does not "make it better," and is not an attempt to "make it better." If the facts are roughly as presented, it was a horrible discriminatory act no matter how you slice it.

It does seem pretty likely to me that both race and the unwed mother thing were important in the particular event. For example, it may be that her race was part of the actual motivation, and the unwed mother thing was used to justify it in a way that wouldn't have been done to a white girl. (Invoking an unwritten morals clause that would not have been invoked for someone who didn't fit a stereotype.)

But I don't know that, or come anywhere close to knowing that. It think it's comparably likely that in this particular event, the unwed mother thing was the only decisive factor. (And that's plenty bad.)

That's one of the horrible things about discrimination. You often don't know, in particular cases, exactly what happened and why.

Consider the school superintendent, who's black. Somebody suggested above that maybe he's shitting down the latter. Could well be. Or it could well be he's just the opposite, but his hands are more or less tied, at least for now, because he can't prove what happened at the school. Or it could well be that he's a thoroughgoing antiracist who'd just love to see a black valedictorian at the school, but also a thoroughgoing sexual moralist who would hate to see an unwed mother valedictorian, maybe especially a black one setting a "bad example" for black girls. We just don't know, and can't know at this point.

One thing that I think may affect how people perceive the story, and guess at odds of different explanations, is an ambiguity in this "decided to name a white student" in this paragraph:

McGehee Secondary School is predominantly white, and 46 percent African-American, according to the complaint. Bratton says that the day after she heard the "big mess" comment, McGehee Principal Darrell Thompson, a defendant, told her "that he decided to name a white student as co-valedictorian," although the white student had a lower G.P.A.

It's not clear whether Bratton is saying that the principal said "a white student," or just that he told her decided to name a partiucular student, who is in fact white.

If the former, and it's true, then it's way, way clearer that race was a huge factor in the particular event. It's pretty freaking obvious and blatant. That seems fairly unlikely to me, though---few racists are stupid enough to say something that sounds so overtly racist to a black mom whose daughter they're fucking over. They know there's likely to be hell to pay.

My guess is that the student that the principal "decided to name" was also not an unwed mother, so it doesn't tell us what kind(s) of discrimination were the necessary or sufficient causes of the decision.

Again, whatever the real reasons, it seems like a really bad and wrong decision---if she got dinged for being an unwed mother, that entirely sucks. I agree with pretty much everybody that it shouldn't be a factor---and with some prior posters that even if it is taken into account, it should count the other way. (She got a B the semester she had a baby, IIRC.)

By the way, among the many things I'm NOT saying is that we shouldn't do anything about apparent racism in cases where we can't decisively prove it. I'm pro affirmative action, and I think that policies should be guided largely by statistical evidence. You shouldn't have to strictly prove it in every case, if theres a prima facie case in the particular instance, against a backdrop of systematic discrimination.

So, for example, I think that if there's good evidence of a pattern of similar discrimination against black students, as her mom maintains, Ms. Wimberley probably should be able to a least get the decision overturned on race grounds, even if that was not clearly a significant factor in the particular case---it's just too suspicious to let stand. The evidentiary standards for that should be different from winning, say, civil damages from the school, and especially for winning a suit against an individual for a particular apparently racist act.

#192

Posted by: Janine, The Little Top Of Venom, OM Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 12:34 PM

I don't care if you have contempt for me - I have contempt for you and your PC buddies.

Thank you for the tell, you fucking Freeper.

#193

Posted by: KOPD Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 12:35 PM

Ah, the PC card. Shoulda known that was coming. Yep, getting people to treat women with a modicum of respect is all a big leftist conspiracy.

#194

Posted by: Ms. Daisy Cutter, Vile Creature Powered Entirely By Bitter Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 12:36 PM

Zugswang:

The school has sent me solicitations for money every year for the last 10 years, so I get to be reminded annually of the shit I put up with for 3 years.
Rip the next solicitation up and send it back to them. If they enclose a postage-paid envelope, so much the better. Include a letter explaining why you won't be sending them any money, and demand to be taken off their donor list.

Bruce:

The liberal use of the f word displays ignorance of the highest order.
Ah, another FUCKING taintcrumpet who values "civility" more than he values treating everybody unlike himself like a human being, and to whom the "violation" of the social order via the use of the word FUCK outweighs the violation of women's humanity by implying that we have no reason to ever get angry except for our girly-hormones and by referring to the ones you don't know as "dear."

Bruce, go FUCK yourself. Then go the FUCK back to ERV's, where you will actually be considered intelligent and decent.

Badandfierce: "...in the theoretically rather progressive City of Chicago."

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA... **wipes tears**

#195

Posted by: AshPlant Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 12:36 PM

How does getting prissy about swearing set you in the 'non-PC?' camp?

#196

Posted by: Illuminata, féministes fin de jeu Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 12:37 PM

Bruce, sweetiekins, we get it, you're a super cool and edgy dude who casually uses bigotry and hatred for funsies and defends this astronomically douchey behavior with standard rightwing spineless buzzwords.

You know, cuz you're so studly and not at all pathetic, cowardly and flaccid.

#197

Posted by: StevoR Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 12:39 PM

@143. Janine, The Little Top Of Venom, OM | July 26, 2011 11:40 AM

Interesting that white people from the US were confronted with the idea that calling a black person a nigger is dehumanizing.

I'm an Australian not from the United States of America and I actually agree with you on the dehumanising part.

Please try to read what I actually wrote and think for a second before attacking someone who pretty much agrees with you. Is that really so hard for you?

And yet you felt the need to speculate that the racist might have been drunk

It was a guess on my part because it seemed likely. Could be right, could be wrong, don't much care - and noted already that even if true its NOT a good excuse.

and that PZ was too quick to use the banhammer. You are making it very easy for me to judge you.

Make that misjudge.

You missed the part where I wrote - please scroll back up to # 106 :

NOT saying the banhammer struck wrongly or anything though

Sigh.

Cannot even be bothered to get what I called you right. Call me what you want, I have been called much worse.

Aren't you a charmer then? [Eyeroll.]

I hope your day gets better I honestly do.

Yeah, fucking hot and bothered about a real situation, one that effects real people. This is something that many people have to deal with nevery fucking day of their lives. Years from now, people will still care about racists actions. That is because it is fucking real.

Never said it wasn't. Never said it wasn't bad or shouldn't be addressed.

I'm referring here to the heat and fury on this specific comments thread NOT to the awful and disgraceful treatment of Ms Wimberly in Real Life.

I'm no racist and feel pissed off that you have wrongly misunderstood me as such. Seems we've a miscommunication and misunderstanding. Ah well, C'est la vie.

Fuck you and the fucking dead porcupine you rode in on.

Well, dead porcupines tend not to be very ride-on-able and suprisinglyenough I don't happen tohave any around rightnow. Also, sorry, Janine, but I'm not really keen for sexual intercourse with you right now. Have fun and thanks for the offer anyhow! ;-)

#198

Posted by: Janine, The Little Top Of Venom, OM Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 12:39 PM

Go, Brucecake, you will be surrounded by people who think that sexist jokes like yours is cutting edge humor.

#199

Posted by: Illuminata, féministes fin de jeu Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 12:40 PM

Thanks for jumping on the douchebag bigot bandwagon, Stevie. You're totally super cool and edgy too!

#200

Posted by: reproductionfails Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 12:40 PM

"I'm not PC" = "I'll be as bigoted as I want to."

#201

Posted by: Zugswang Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 12:43 PM

#167:

Bigotry isn't a competition. It's all equally indefensible.

The only way you can make an argument of scale is basing it on the degree of severity to which it is practiced.

#202

Posted by: Illuminata, féministes fin de jeu Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 12:45 PM

I like how they confuse contempt and mocking for anger and being upset.

Stevie, Bruceypoo - I know this will rock your bigot worlds, but, just cuz a woman disagrees with you - using naughty words that make bruce clutch his pearls! - doesn't mean they're so upset and angry.

It means, you're boring, standard-issue trolls, doing exactly what every other boring, standard-issue troll has done before you.

That's why we're mocking you two totally super cool and edgy dudes.

#203

Posted by: Janine, The Little Top Of Venom, OM Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 12:45 PM

CupcakoR, that is a lots of works used to try to explain why you feel justified to be an assclam.

One last bit for you, you willfully obtuse assclam, just because I tell youfuck you, it does not mean that I ever want to have sex with you.

Fucking waste of meat.

#204

Posted by: Ing: PhD Trollologist Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 12:45 PM

Well, dead porcupines tend not to be very ride-on-able and suprisinglyenough I don't happen tohave any around rightnow. Also, sorry, Janine, but I'm not really keen for sexual intercourse with you right now. Have fun and thanks for the offer anyhow! ;-)

AHAHAHAHHAHA how utterly sleazy

Banworthy

#205

Posted by: statueofmike Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 12:47 PM

#62 et al, you should be ashamed of yourselves for making fun of Kymberly Wimberly's name.

Her parents were obviously very forward-thinking. Now Kymberly has the perfect opportunity to start a career on the Disney Channel.

#206

Posted by: Brownian, Most Vicious & Petty of Pharyngulites Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 12:49 PM

It would just show some degree of self control which you clearly lack if you didn't get so wound up.

Check it out, Brucie: people smarter than you were talking about you.

(Thanks for the TET link, SGBM).

#207

Posted by: Matt "Nora" Penfold Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 12:50 PM

Kymberly Wimberly still does not beat the Dickey-Wicker Waiver!

#208

Posted by: Katherine Lorraine, Chaton de la Mort Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 12:52 PM

@statueofmike:

AHAHAHAHA! THAT'S SO FUNNY! Making fun of someone's name! It's like you never got out of elementary school!! HAHAHA! You're a laugh riot!!!

(/clearly sarcastic)

#209

Posted by: asavadge Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 12:53 PM

The moral of this story is if you do your best and reach your goal thanks to all of your hard work the reward will still go to someone else if not due to bigotry then due to favoritism.

I feel nothing but disgust right now.

#210

Posted by: Matt "Nora" Penfold Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 12:54 PM

PC is easily mocked and conteptible.

After all, it is really contemptible to be asked not to use racial or sexual slurs.

Just how do cope Bruce not being able to refer to blacks as niggers, or asians as pakis or chinks ? And how much you must suffer when you cannot call a women a cunt or a bitch, or a disabled person a spaz.

Truly it is contemptible to ask you not to use those words.

Poor you. I am surprised your cock has not withered and died you are so put upon.

#211

Posted by: Janine, The Little Top Of Venom, OM Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 12:54 PM

I don't doubt your contempt and mocking, but there is clearly anger there too.

Brucecake, you probably also think that you struck a nerve.

No "thanks" are needed. I just wanted you to go to a place where you do not need to worry about our collective "PC" can hamper your humor.

Assclam.

#212

Posted by: necronomikron Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 12:55 PM

On her name:

While the name is unfortunate, I would avoid mocking it: there's a person behind that name. The only thing I can think of to say about the name, is that I cringe at the teasing she must have received from it (thus the 'unfortunate' part).

#213

Posted by: jpmccalliii Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 12:56 PM

I live in McGehee AR. Racism is a big problem here. The bigots have learned not say the wrong things in front of cameras and on the record. But you can see it all over the place.

Last week I was sitting in the waiting room of the doctors office with my kids. The kids were sitting there quietly waiting. An old couple came in and sat down next to me. After a while the old man says "Your kids are very well behaved" and then he leans over and quietly out of the side of his mouth says "Not like those little nigger kids." I was a bit shocked and just said "What?" He clarified "You know those little black kids would be running all over the place." I said "My kids are black" Now it was his turn to be shocked and he said "What?" So I said "My wife is black." That shut him up and his wife looked mortified and she started saying how sweet and nice they looked. Then the nurse called my name and I left.

When my wife went to school in McGehee (1983) they elected a black homecoming queen. The administration wouldn't have it.

There's a picture of my family at this site.
http://jpmiii.com/

#214

Posted by: mikerattlesnake Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 12:57 PM

bruce, if you're going to chide someone for lacking the self-control not to respond to your trolling, have you considered that maybe you should exercise some in the first place and just not troll? If one's most egregious error is taking you seriously, that certainly says more about you than them.

#215

Posted by: Illuminata, féministes fin de jeu Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 12:59 PM

necronomikron - speaking of names. That one kicks ass.


PC is easily mocked and conteptible.

Yeah, clutching your pearls over the "f" word was easy to mock.

I'm sure we can scrounge up a fainting couch for you, you delicate flower you.

#216

Posted by: Thomathy Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 1:00 PM

Umm ...Let's not let the porcupine fucker drag this thread onto a tangent about whether the words cunt, nigger or fuck (or any other bloody combination of letters) should be spelled out when they're being talked about. There's more important and less intellectually dishonest pursuits to be about.

On topic, racism apologists seem to pop out of the wood work as often and readily as the misogynists. I shouldn't be surprised, but I didn't figure they'd necessarily be the same people. That's a revelation. It's also a good thing. It means, even if they're loud and fucking stupid, there's less of them out there than I've recently believed there are.

What the school administrators did was out and out racist. It's so obvious. Why is there even debate? Perhaps my Canadian perspective (not that racism doesn't exist here) accounts for my difficultly in believing that people actually think there's any question.

Also, sexism. The school administrators and the pervasive culture of racism and sexism (inspired by white privilege and a nasty religious tradition) that that girl was fortunate enough to lift herself above academically (and hopefully, in time, literally) are just awful.

And, again, how can anyone not see this as intrinsically racist? It's impossible for it to be anything else. Did racism just stop existing and the culture and history of America change and I just didn't get the memo?

Very much like in discussions here about sexism, it's possible for people, and their actions, to be influenced by a pervasive culture, like racism, without overtly or consciously acting like the worst elements of it. Really, how can anyone question whether race was an issue here?!

#217

Posted by: oihorse Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 1:03 PM

Really, if you feed the troll at this point in the thread it's time to uninstall the internets.

#218

Posted by: mikerattlesnake Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 1:04 PM

"You are clearly a keyboard warrior with no real life.

I imagine you are here a lot as you have no real life , some of us do have lives outside cyberspace."

Prove it. Leave.

#219

Posted by: Katherine Lorraine, Chaton de la Mort Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 1:05 PM

Oh and he espouses homophobia too! Bruce, you're such a catch! Gonna call me a "tranny" or a "heshe" now? That would be the icing on the cake!

#220

Posted by: reproductionfails Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 1:07 PM

Oh, here we go, with the 'closet dyke' and 'keyboard warrior' shit.

What do you do for a living, Bruce?

You obviously have time to be a fucking troll.

#221

Posted by: Matt "Nora" Penfold Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 1:07 PM

You are clearly a very insecure individual a closet dyke perhaps ?

Bruce, are you taking part in some kind of challenge to see who can make themselves look the stupidest the quickest ? If so I think you will have won.

I will leave it to Janine as to whether she want to explain to you just how stupid that comment makes you look.

Anyone else think the banhammer needs to come out ?

#222

Posted by: Bronze Dog Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 1:08 PM

One thing I always wonder about is, what is PC, really?

It seems to change all the time with trolls. I had a racist one try to chastise me for not being PC enough, and what'll my friends think if they caught me expressing opinions that didn't jive with his straw man pile.

#223

Posted by: necronomikron Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 1:09 PM

@jpmccalliii:

Quick question regarding the informal segregation you see in Dermott and McGehee: is there a private school involved that's mostly getting white children or something? I'm crunching the numbers and nothing is adding up. Then again, I'm working off of 10 year old census information versus current information on the school, but it seems that attendance amongst white children is under-represented in both schools, but much more so in Dermott (6% white population in the school, versus 24-25% white general population in the city) than McGehee (iirc, something like 51% white population in the school and 56% white general population in the city)

#224

Posted by: Brownian, Most Vicious & Petty of Pharyngulites Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 1:09 PM

Brucie, before you run off to trade slurs with other like minded morons, be sure to read the article I linked for you.

You can download the full text here.

It's only fair: since you tried to help us be more emotionally repressed, it's only fair that I help you be less intellectually stunted.

You see, it's your emotional repression that makes you dumb.

No need to thank me. Make the world a less stupid place by ridding it of people like you, any way I can, is reward enough.

#225

Posted by: Rey Fox, Bird Caller Guy Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 1:10 PM

It is still true---yes it is, and you know it, so stop acting as if you don't---that certain states, mostly Southern, are far more likely to hold retrograde views on just about everything.

Hell, just the fact that he saw this blog post about a story in a state that began with an "A" and assumed it was Alabama is telling.

Bruce:

Janine and your ilk ,
You are clearly a very insecure individual a closet dyke perhaps ?

Howls of derisive laughter!

#226

Posted by: AshPlant Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 1:10 PM

oihorse: agreed. He's not stupid, he's just pushing buttons. And also stupid as fuck, but hey. Wake me up when he says anything a twelve year old wouldn't say.

#227

Posted by: Janine, The Little Top Of Venom, OM Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 1:10 PM

If you had any deep self confidence you would not react the way you do. You are clearly a very insecure individual a closet dyke perhaps ?

As most of the regulars here can tell you, I am not a "closet dyke". But the fact that you think that it is a bad thing to be shows you an other aspect of you that make you slime.

I have been a GLBT activist and a volunteer councilor. My life is not just on the internet, you fucking internet tough guy.

Fucking die already.

#228

Posted by: nemo the derv Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 1:11 PM

You know what would be really cool?
She goes to college, graduates with a valley D, comes back and become superintendant of schools.

The only problem with this is that I don't know why she would want to go back to Arkansas.

#229

Posted by: necronomikron Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 1:11 PM

(addendum to above question)

Or could it be that they're shipping them off to Monticello?

#230

Posted by: Ing: PhD Trollologist Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 1:12 PM

Being Non-PC, I maintain is saying things that are detestable but politically popular while insisting that you are a rebel for saying it.

Limbaugh for example isn't "PC" but he just repeats the popular background and hidden racist garbage in the culture aloud.

It's like "Christian persecution", a rider meme to an absurdly powerful and popular movement that they are actually weak and oppressed.

#231

Posted by: Matt "Nora" Penfold Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 1:14 PM

The only problem with this is that I don't know why she would want to go back to Arkansas.

True. That would be way beyond the call of any duty to be public spirited.

#232

Posted by: Brownian, Most Vicious & Petty of Pharyngulites Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 1:15 PM

I imagine you are here a lot as you have no real life , some of us do have lives outside cyberspace.

Aw, poor Brucie's twelve, and a really fucking stupid twelve at that.

#233

Posted by: Nerd of Redhead, OM Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 1:16 PM

I feel sorry for your pitiful type.
And I feel sorry for your shriveled penis, and broken strings of pearls. Stop being an immature adolescent and mature up. There are good and solid reasons you don't unintentionally insult others, which is what you call PC avoids. If there is a reason for your continued posting of idiotic drivel, I can't see it. Oh yes, I meant to insult your lack of intelligence, language, and cogency. Run along, your betters are having a serious discussion.
#234

Posted by: nemo the derv Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 1:20 PM

#6
that's a nice though jamie but with this being Arkansas the chances are very slim that race was not a factor.
I might support a benefit of the doubt on the east or west coast, perhaps around the great lakes even.
This might sound like I'm being unfair to Arkansas it's different there.
While the U.S.A is technically one country it isn't really in many ways.

#235

Posted by: Janine, The Little Top Of Venom, OM Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 1:22 PM

Trying to get back on topic. Thank you, jpmccalliii, for sharing your story. I wish I could say that I am surprised. May, you, your wife and your children keep your sanity in that environment. At least not everyone is like that couple you spoke of.

#236

Posted by: Jarred C. Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 1:24 PM

My comment will probably get lost in the list here, but I'll comment anyways. I had a girlfriend who was denied a valedictorian spot at her high school. She had the highest GPA (with all the hard AP classes and such), but she wasn't friends with the popular kids, nor was she involved in any sports, clubs, or theater. Her denial of the appointment was because she wasn't social enough.

I always thought it was odd that she didn't get an academic award because she didn't do some other non-academic stuff.

#237

Posted by: jpmccalliii Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 1:25 PM

@necronomikron

Age - Dermott is a dying town full of old retired white people and young poor black people. And we're not talking very big numbers either. There's also a few small Christian schools around like Cornerstone Christian Academy Tillar, AR

McGehee has the same problem just a little bigger town.

The numbers you cited for Hispanic people have GOT to be WAY off. I wonder why.

#238

Posted by: Ms. Daisy Cutter, Vile Creature Powered Entirely By Bitter Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 1:27 PM

Thomathy:

On topic, racism apologists seem to pop out of the wood work as often and readily as the misogynists. I shouldn't be surprised, but I didn't figure they'd necessarily be the same people.
Bigotries cluster in the same people. Crank magnetism in a more socially sanctioned form.

Brucie:

When I decide to leave , I'll be sure to have someone else come over in my place.
A confession of trolling. Bannable offense.

(I'm wondering now - is it just ERV's shit factory we're getting these rejects from, or did we grab /b/'s attention or something?)

#239

Posted by: Brownian, Most Vicious & Petty of Pharyngulites Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 1:31 PM

And I have seen a lot of 'discussions' here , most are pretty intellectually stunted and shouting in the echo chamber.

No, you haven't. You've been outside, enjoying your real life in cyberspace, remember?

#240

Posted by: AshPlant Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 1:32 PM

Hell, I don't even know what a valedictorian is, but the idea the idea of being shunned in high school is still pretty much a trigger for me. Half my life later. I can' imagine how it feels to be denied from something that important, for whatever reason (I merely wasn't in the yearbook).

#241

Posted by: Janine, The Little Top Of Venom, OM Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 1:32 PM

Nerd, unlike Janine and her/it's ilk I don't get riled by name calling.

Because PMS jokes are funny and no one should get upset when used to dismiss someone. Also, just so you know, Nerd is my ilk. (Thinks back to the time when Nerd, Patricia and I made up the Gruesome Trio.)

When I decide to leave , I'll be sure to have someone else come over in my place.

Tag team trolling? Who was just whining about some people not having a life?

And I have seen a lot of 'discussions' here , most are pretty intellectually stunted and shouting in the echo chamber.

Sack of shit, it is only an echo chamber when a racist, misogynist, homophobic waste of meat like you show up.

Fucking die already.

#242

Posted by: Dude... Real Men Watch Ponies! Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 1:33 PM

@Daisy
#250

(I'm wondering now - is it just ERV's shit factory we're getting these rejects from, or did we grab /b/'s attention or something?)

Um... you won't be able to post at all if this site actually attracted the ire of /b/.

... crap, forgot internet rule #1 and #2.

#243

Posted by: nemo the derv Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 1:33 PM

According to the stats

http://www.msubillings.edu/caer/quality_rankings_of_education_in.htm

Arkansas ranks 35th in the nation.

Above average kid judged by below average people perhaps?

#244

Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 1:37 PM

crap, forgot internet rule #1 and #2.


uh oh

everyone duck

#245

Posted by: necronomikron Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 1:39 PM

@jpmccalliii:

The numbers for hispanics comes from the ADE (Arkansas Department of Education) and was only McGehee High School

#246

Posted by: Nerd of Redhead, OM Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 1:40 PM

A Brucey, Brucey, you are so dumb, you acknowledge you aren't here to discuss, but rather troll. You see Brucey, if you were here to discuss something, you would say "this is what I believe, and this the evidence (present link) to back it up". All you have done is stir your own shit, like all trolls do. You can't stand the idea that people are smarter than you, which includes all the regulars and lurkers here at Pharyngula, and you hate the fact that your betters don't agree with you. So, you attempt to bring them down to your level of shit. We see through your fuckwittery, as you aren't the first troll by a long shot to pull such crap.

#247

Posted by: Dude... Real Men Watch Ponies! Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 1:44 PM

@Nerd
#258
Except, you know, he did succeed at derailing the thread and gotten quite a few responses.

#248

Posted by: slyfoxesq Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 1:44 PM

I suspect that those commenters who are skeptical of this story either 1. have never been to/lived in Arkansas/the "mid-south" and so have a hard time imagining the level of "racial tension" (a euphemism favored by people who use terms like "reverse racism") still present, OR 2. have lived there and are part of the problem (refusing/unable to acknowledge racism exists in their community, and so finding any excuse not to call a spade a spade).

Also, I'd like to propose that anyone who uses the term "race card" unironically* automatically gets booted out of the conversation at hand and has to be a silent observer in discussions of racism until they learn enough to become embarrassed that the phrase ever left their lips (or fingertips, as it were).

/resume lurking

(*Exception for people who use it in a disclaimer, as in "I don't want to play the race card, but.." even though comments like that make me cringe, as though people of colour are expected to apologize for bringing up a subject that might make teh whites uncomfortable and reassure them that they're not "one of those" "PC-police" types..)

#249

Posted by: Utakata Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 1:45 PM

Q for Pharyngular:

So is this Bruce what you call a tone troll?

#250

Posted by: nemo the derv Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 1:46 PM

#252
Valetdictorian comes from vale dicere which means roughly "to say farewell".

Basically, the idea is that a student is picked to represent the entire graduating class to make a farewell speech.

Typically, the best student is expected to be selected for this honor..........except in Arkansas.

#251

Posted by: lhikanliveson Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 1:52 PM

STOP

HAMMER TIME

#252

Posted by: Janine, The Little Top Of Venom, OM Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 1:54 PM

Brucecake, it is easy to have this, ahem, "delusion of grandeur" when compared to the likes of you.

Try to get back on topic, shitstain. Why should we not be concerned that an intelligent young woman is being denied what she earned? Or is it PC to care about that?

#253

Posted by: Nerd of Redhead, OM Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 1:55 PM

Nerd you are so deluded and arrogant in your delusions of grandeur.
So are you. If you weren't arrogant, you would go away. If you weren't deluded, you would realize we are laughing at your inane and insane posts. If you didn't have delusions of grandeur, you would realize that the rest of the world doesn't give a shit what you think or say about anything. Care to play some more?
#254

Posted by: Janine, The Little Top Of Venom, OM Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 1:58 PM

And yet you are here, throwing a shit fit.

Brucecake, you are fucking worthless.

#255

Posted by: ophelia.benson Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 1:58 PM

PZ -

it's just that Bob and Janet (or whatever the white kids' names are) have been such active leaders in the school, they've had school spirit, everyone knows and loves Bob and Janet...hard work, intelligence and talent simply aren't as important as being the right kind of kid. Sorry, girl, academic accomplishment isn't as important as going to the good church, dressing right, being in sports or cheerleading, going to the right parties, and all that other stuff that establishes your position in the social hierarchy.

Jarred @ 248

She had the highest GPA (with all the hard AP classes and such), but she wasn't friends with the popular kids, nor was she involved in any sports, clubs, or theater. Her denial of the appointment was because she wasn't social enough. I always thought it was odd that she didn't get an academic award because she didn't do some other non-academic stuff.

It's really dogma in the US that well-rounded is better than "narrowly" academic. This is a stupid idea.

#256

Posted by: lhikanliveson Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 1:59 PM

@Brownian:

I read the article you linked (out of curiosity) and now I'm kind of scared. I consider myself pretty leftist, and I'm certainly a hard-left socialist by US standards, but when I read the bit about "emotional approach" and "emotional avoidance" I was like "FFFFFFFU" because I tend toward the avoidance side a lot.

Fortunately, tendency does not dictate necessity, right?

#257

Posted by: jadopine Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 2:01 PM

"Shoulda studied less math and worked harder at being white, like Bob and Janet."

Best description of institutional discrimination ever. I am stealing this.

#258

Posted by: Arkady Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 2:03 PM

@GravityIsJustATheory

It's not totally alien to my British experience, but only to a much lesser extent: a group of us in my year took some exams a year early, and the prize in that subject went to the daughter of a school governor (PTA the US equivalent?) despite the fact I got higher marks. Hardly very serious though, despite my geeky self-isolation I had a lot of support from most teachers (I spent most of my free time in the library, just had nothing to talk about to most of my peers. Bullying eased off after age 14 or so, as the bullies discovered drink and drugs and life outside school).

It also may also help that we just don't have a lot of these traditions in the UK, no formal graduation ceremony and 'Proms' have only started in the last few years, we called it the 'Leavers Ball' and there was no pressure to go as a 'couple'.

#259

Posted by: Illuminata, féministes fin de jeu Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 2:04 PM

So did pearl-clutching, douchey Bruce hit the bigot trifecta yet?

We've hit on racism, psychotic misogyny - have we gotten to homophobia or disablism yet?

#260

Posted by: Katherine Lorraine, Chaton de la Mort Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 2:07 PM

@Illuminata:

He did call Janine a dyke. I'm waiting for the transphobia myself.

#261

Posted by: Janine, The Little Top Of Venom, OM Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 2:07 PM

Illuminata, it would seem that you missed the homophobia.

#262

Posted by: nemo the derv Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 2:08 PM

The fortunate thing for her is now that she's leaving high school she can get start her real education.
Her parents (or is it parent?) probably would have pulled her out and sent her to college early if they had enough money.

#263

Posted by: Merridol Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 2:10 PM

jpmccalliii, thank you for the local take on this. Many of the people I know are reluctant to correct older people, "product of their time" and all of that, but I've always thought that train of thought was unconscionably dismissive of those same older folks. Hopefully you gave them something to think about, if only to make them more cautious in spreading the venom around. Also, your kids are adorable.

On another note, I know troll feeding isn't always the best use of time, but it's fun to see Janine, Brownian, Nerd and Josh (and all the others!) sharpening their fangs. I'll never see dead porcupines in quite the same light.

#264

Posted by: Illuminata, féministes fin de jeu Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 2:10 PM

So is this Bruce what you call a tone troll?

I would say no, actually. He did tone troll, but the more he posts, the more it becomes clear:

He just desperately wants to be part of the Pharyngula club. He's so totally super edgy and cool, he totally thought he was in. He tried to get in, but no one laughed at his misogyny and now he's pouting. NOW he's pretending that he totally didn't want to be part of the "club", he really just came to post a lot so he could hang around here.

#265

Posted by: SC OM Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 2:14 PM

It's really dogma in the US that well-rounded is better than "narrowly" academic. This is a stupid idea.

I've been recommending for a while Jerome Karabel's The Chosen, which is about the history of admissions at Harvard, Yale, and Princeton. The "well-rounded" criterion and the activities bullshit were instituted expressly to keep out urban Jewish kids.

#266

Posted by: Matt "Nora" Penfold Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 2:16 PM

...have we gotten to homophobia or disablism yet?

Well so far he is had not shown any bigotry towards the disabled, but that just requires we give him time.

But on the homophobia front, we are there. He thinks Janine's "issues" stem from her being a closet dyke.

The fact that there is nothing closeted about Janine has escaped the fuckwit.

#267

Posted by: Illuminata, féministes fin de jeu Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 2:18 PM

Racism is only rarely a matter of snarled epithets and swinging ax handles. Usually it's a subtler thing

And there's a whole blog centered around shining light on this sort of bigotry.

microaggressions.

#268

Posted by: Janine, The Little Top Of Venom, OM Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 2:18 PM

If you recall Janinething my first comment was laughing at your insane pmtesque reaction to a previous commenter.

Sack of shit, the fact that you made a sexist crack instead of pointing out where I was wrong was only the first clue of what a worthless waste of meat you are. A little prodding confirmed it.

Fucking die already.

#269

Posted by: Nerd of Redhead, OM Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 2:19 PM

And Nerdthing I am not deluded
Fixed that for you shrivel penis loser. Well, you aren't proving that you aren't deluded with your inane and insane trolling posts. If you have nothing positive to add, why not go away. Janine and I will be here long after PZ banhammers your idiocy into the dungeon. Oh, I see, you consider it a mark of respect to be so obnoxious you get the banhammer. MRA's think it is a badge of honor, and not a swipe at their irrationality.
#270

Posted by: Bronze Dog Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 2:19 PM

My eyes kind of glazed over the Internet Tough Guy act, the homophobic, sexist, etcetera insults, and well, pretty much all the empty fluff of Bruce's comments that he's been appropriately ridiculed for.

So, Bruce, can you articulate the meat of whatever your point is, assuming you even have one?

I see a school with a historical trend that strongly suggests racism against blacks. This school denied valedictorian status to their best qualifying student, who happens to be black. The suspicion of racism is also backed by some comments the staff reportedly said.

Granted, there are some pretty bad alternative motivations, such as sexism and bias against teen parents, but these conditions are more likely working in addition to, not in place of the suspected racism.

Is this an accurate description of the situation?
If it isn't, what part is inaccurate?

#271

Posted by: Dude... Real Men Watch Ponies! Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 2:22 PM

@Janine
#285
I think Bruce is a verbal masochists.
He probably gets sexually aroused for getting you angry.
So unless you're into that kind of thing...

#272

Posted by: Janine, The Little Top Of Venom, OM Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 2:25 PM

Fuck you too, Brucecake.

#273

Posted by: girlofthegaps Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 2:25 PM

My (Virginia Beach) high school managed to have mostly not-black valedictorians by ensuring that it was impossible to be valedictorian unless you were part of the magnet program -- a 100-150 member program embedded in a general class of over 500, for which one had to apply in middle school. Black students were severely underrepresented in this program; I think there were perhaps two in my graduating year, despite the school/city itself having a sizable black population. Many freshman/sophomore magnet-only classes were treated as AP courses, and thus came with GPA bonus points. Honors courses (the only equivalent available to non-magnet students at these grade levels) were not given the same GPA curve. Most of the magnet courses at these levels were functionally no different than the equivalent honors courses, but they served to segregate the magnet students from the others. It may be worth mentioning that the majority of the magnet students were fairly wealthy and/or had families involved in the school system, while the host school was in one of the poorer parts of the city.

There were also similar problems relating to who won school scholarships or was even aware of some of them being open for applications (mostly the daughter of the student activities coordinator, in my year), who was assigned to prestigious academic teams, or who received awards at assemblies.

Basically, it's amazing the depths that schools will sink to in order to ensure that the "right people" make it up to the podium.

(/ignores Bruce's blatherings as unworthy of response... Also everyone else seems to have it covered)

#274

Posted by: nemo the derv Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 2:28 PM

Actually, I'm starting to think that the single mother status may be more of a factor than race here.

When I was in high school any girl who got pregnant was shuttled off to Broadway.

Broadway was a school in the district that was set aside for "troubled kids"

Now I graduated 25 years ago so I don't really know if they still do this but this was in California.

A school in Arkansas doing stuff like that would not be a suprise to me.

#275

Posted by: Janine, The Little Top Of Venom, OM Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 2:31 PM

(/ignores Bruce's blatherings as unworthy of response... Also everyone else seems to have it covered)

I just want to thank you for adding something that is on topic.

While the feeding of troll is encouraged here and for some of us, it is a sport; you should not feel like you have to do likewise.

#276

Posted by: Bronze Dog Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 2:31 PM

@girlofthegaps 290

Ugh, that's devious. Something like that really undermines that whole "equality of opportunity" schools are supposed to help us achieve.

#277

Posted by: heliobates Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 2:33 PM

And I have seen a lot of 'discussions' here , most are pretty intellectually stunted and shouting in the echo chamber.

I've got $50 says Bruce is an escaped chatbot. After every interaction I want to ask "Eliza, is that you?"

#278

Posted by: Illuminata, féministes fin de jeu Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 2:36 PM

Bruce, Janine is never going to sleep with you. Please stop begging for her attention. At this point, it's just sad.

#279

Posted by: Paul W., OM Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 2:38 PM

jpmccalliii:

When my wife went to school in McGehee (1983) they elected a black homecoming queen. The administration wouldn't have it.

Thanks for that comment.

I googled up the court case, and wow. Just wow.

http://ar.findacase.com/research/wfrmDocViewer.aspx/xq/fac.19850614_0000019.EAR.htm/qx

That's some racist shit right there, all right. Apparently the football coach jiggered the homecoming queen results at least twice (in 1976 and 1983) to avoid ever having a black girl elected----and the first time, he was dumb enough to say that McGeehee High School wasn't ready for a black homecoming queen. (I guess to credible witnesses that convinced the court.)

The second time, he apparently didn't like the fact that a black girl won the most votes on the first ballot, which would previously have counted as "winning," so he dinged one of the white girls and had a re-vote. One of the remaining two white girls then "won," or so he said.

The judge ordered a one-round secret ballot revote, but a white girl won. I guess the guys voting for the white girls got a chance to decide which ONE white girl to vote for, to ensure she'd win, so the black girl lost again.

Really not fair IMO, but I'd guess the judge couldn't establish with certainty that the black girl had won the first election fair and square.

A couple of fucked facts in the case:

(1) The white girl who won the re-vote was the daughter of the principal of that very high school.

(2) By tradition, only football players got to vote for homecoming queen, hence the coach running the elections.

That is just so fucked up, even without the coach rigging the actual elections in a racist way. You wouldn't want any of the wrong sorts of girls to win---no hippie chicks, no nerdy girls, and not even all-around likable girls who aren't part of the in crowd, no matter how popular among non-football players, all of whom are of course male, and disproportionaly "popular" with the "popular" crowd.

It's a second-order popularity contest---simply being most popular is not enough; you have to be most popular among the popular kids. Wow.

That should be illegal, too. School administrators should not have the right to amplify in-group / out-group problems in that way, turning the knob of teenage dominance shit up to 11.

The racist aspect of that story is the sort of history that makes me think Wimberly's mom is right to appeal to a pattern of discrimination, and that the standards of proof should not be too high.

Even if we don't know what the decisive factor(s) actually were in the Wimberly case---and I think we here don't, at least not yet---that school administration simply should not have the leeway to do anything that even looks suspiciously like denying a black girl a title she's earned. They should not be able to game the system by inventing rules or standards on the fly.


#280

Posted by: Dude... Real Men Watch Ponies! Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 2:41 PM

@Paul W.
#296
And people wonder why Columbine Shooting incidence occur.

#281

Posted by: Ms. Daisy Cutter, Vile Creature Powered Entirely By Bitter Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 2:44 PM

Arkady, #273: The "classless" society of the United States imbues its educational, workplace, and recreational institutions with all sorts of rituals and in-group/out-group bullshit. It is a very, very conformist country, unsurprising in a very, very religious country, as well as a country riddled with extremely insular and homogeneous communities.

"Well-rounded" did begin as a dogwhistle of sorts, per the link provided by SC OM, but now it's been assimilated into our anti-intellectual credo to imply that only boring, personality-devoid numpties would be fascinated enough by anything academic to devote most of their energies to it, and that the important things to learn in school are how to schmooze and how to play sports.

You can see the results throughout corporate America.

#282

Posted by: cicely (Inadvertent Phytocidal Maniac) Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 3:02 PM

Her race and socio-economic class and sex and religiously-unacceptable sexual activeness are all likely co-contributors to this "mess". The only things lacking that I can see is that she's not (AFAICS) also a Muslim and the daughter of illegal immigrants.
-

Anyway, don't dismiss Alabama as the problem, kids.

I don't see anyone dismissing it that way; I do see an acknowledgement that Alabama is a prime festering spawning-ground for the attitudes in question.
-

#283

Posted by: truthspeaker Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 3:10 PM

Posted by: MrFire Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 11:06 AM

For those who might care, I noticed that my comment @12 could be construed as whitesplainin'.

Therefore I would like to emphasize that I in no way wish to promote the idea that her status as a teen mother was necessarily a more important factor than her color

Your comment could not be read that way except by people who are looking for racism-denial even in posts where it isn't there.

#284

Posted by: Cynickal Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 3:11 PM

Doesn't that bring up those fond memories of high school? We all knew who the anointed ones were, the kids who were typically the children of the wealthier members of the community, who had the connections, who had the right image, who associated with the right other kids, who were in the right clubs.

Yeah, I hate that Potter kid!

#285

Posted by: Dude... Real Men Watch Ponies! Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 3:15 PM

@Cynickal
#302

Yeah, I hate that Potter kid!

I would prefer to be nameless then be the target of a murder.
Just saying.

#286

Posted by: truthspeaker Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 3:19 PM

Posted by: AshPlant Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 12:36 PM

How does getting prissy about swearing set you in the 'non-PC?' camp?

Getting upset about curse words that target particular classes of people makes you politically correct.

Getting upset about neutral curse words with no such connotations makes you civil and calm.

Makes perfect fucking sense, right?

#287

Posted by: Richard Austin Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 3:20 PM

THIS IS NOT 'BRUCE' - IT'S HIS MOTHER.

My sincere apologies to all concerned - I've admonished him for this sort of acting up before.

He's grounded.

I'm also confiscating his console and laptop for 40 days.

o.o

#288

Posted by: Beatrice, anormalement indécente Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 3:23 PM

About #300..
Um, seriously? *dies laughing*

#289

Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 3:24 PM

THIS IS NOT 'BRUCE' - IT'S HIS MOTHER. My sincere apologies to all concerned - I've admonished him for this sort of acting up before. He's grounded. I'm also confiscating his console and laptop for 40 days.


groan

#290

Posted by: MinnieTheFinn, kaamea ateistifeministinarttu Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 3:30 PM

If #300 is really true...

Bruce's mother: props to you. Quite a handful you have there. My best wishes to your parenting challenge, and may he grow up to be a decent human being.

#291

Posted by: CJO Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 3:32 PM

I have never once seen that happen on these here tubes. I wonder how it came to her attention that wee Brucie was misbehaving?

#292

Posted by: truthspeaker Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 3:34 PM

Time for my anecdote:

In my school, the valedictorian was chosen by popular vote of the graduating class, and it had nothing to do with academic performance (other than the base requirement that you actually graduate).

There was certainly competition among the top students to see who had the best GPA, but none of it was officially recognized by the school.

I was also fortunate to live in a school district where the influential people in town tended to want their kids to succeed academically and didn't care how the football team did. Kids who were mediocre academically but good at sports were popular with other kids but didn't get much special treatment from the administration.

#293

Posted by: MemeGene Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 3:34 PM

Is this a regional thing? My high school (in Washington State) gave valedictorian recognition to the highest GPA, period. We had five 4.0 valedictorians and one salutatorian with a single A- on her transcript (yes, grade inflation, no weighting). That said, we were not guaranteed speeches and had to try out for them along with some other popular (but dumber) students. All six of us ended up having speech opportunities, but the football jock ASB president gave the graduation speech (a poor version of my senior breakfast speech, in fact). I was away at a national tournament instead of Commencement, so I didn't much care.

It was nice to have it that way - it was a fair computation for valedictorian, and there were multiple opportunities to bore the whole class.

This is a travesty regardless of the reason; this student worked her butt off and did a great job by any objective measurement. She deserves highest honors, period.

#294

Posted by: The Pint Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 3:35 PM

PC is easily mocked and conteptible.

Right. Because racist slurs and misogynist jokes are beyond reproach.

You know what else is easily mocked? Misspelling.

#295

Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 3:35 PM

uh, not bruce's mother.

#296

Posted by: The Pint Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 3:37 PM

@#300 -

*JAW DROPS*

#297

Posted by: Zugswang Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 3:41 PM

#298

Ironic, as the kind of people who are most willing to jump through all those hoops are the kinds of people who structure their pre-professional lives in such a way that anything they do must be some kind of accomplishment they can list in an application. In the end, the process creates an uninteresting, undifferentiated ego-mass that demands conformity.

Ask anyone that works in college admissions how wearisome it is to go through thousands of featureless applications where every last one graduated with honors, served on student council, did volunteer work at a local charity, and lettered in 3 sports.

#298

Posted by: Bronze Dog Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 3:44 PM

Getting upset about curse words that target particular classes of people makes you politically correct.

Getting upset about neutral curse words with no such connotations makes you civil and calm.

Makes perfect fucking sense, right?

Who, other than the tone trolls, said anything about calm? Who honestly cares about calm, anyway?

If a person gets emotional while making an accurate observation, presenting evidence, or pointing out a logical fallacy, does that emotion invalidate their point?

No. It doesn't.

A valid argument is a valid argument. Evidence is evidence. A logical fallacy is a logical fallacy. Calm shouldn't enter into the evaluation.

#299

Posted by: Brownian, Most Vicious & Petty of Pharyngulites Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 3:48 PM

@#300 -
*JAW DROPS*

I'll wait to see a birth certificate before I accept that one at face value.

#300

Posted by: Rrhain Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 3:50 PM

I am hardly discounting all of the evidence of bias against Ms. Wimberly based on her race and the fact that she had a child during high school, but I will also never underestimate the ability for a person in authority to just do something stupid and be unable to understand why people are reacting so poorly.

My own high school experience had me on the other side: I somehow snagged the "Outstanding Achievement in Mathematics" for my graduating class. Huh? Now, we had a graduating class of about 500 and there were three of us who were the top math nerds in the school. One was an Asian female, one was a white male, and me (another white male). We all made it through second-year calculus by the time we graduated, but how did I get this award? While I had the top grade in first-year calc, my second-year grade slipped. While I took gold in the Academic Decathlon for math (and eight medals overall), the other guy was the one who took the Putnam and there's no comparison. The third student, while certainly talented, didn't seem to do anything outside of the classwork with regard to math (she was valedictorian). So while I vaguely understand how I might have won it over her, how did I win it over him?

I honestly have no idea. Were they trying to be nice? He won an achievement award in another area and did they think they needed me to get something, too?

Here's my big question: Why did the "co-valedictorian" accept it? To this day I question the award I got, but I tell myself that it was a subjective award and they must have valued something I did (I was the one that got them to even offer second-year calculus as an option), but I should think that when the criteria for an award are objective and you didn't win, a person's sense of honor would come up and say, "I don't deserve this award. I didn't win it."

#301

Posted by: ChasCPeterson Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 3:52 PM

I'll wait to see a birth certificate before I accept that one at face value.

Notarized. And not the fucking short-form, either.

#302

Posted by: MinnieTheFinn, kaamea ateistifeministinarttu Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 3:53 PM

Oh, hi Brownian.

I wanted to say earlier that your #140 made me snort juice out of my nose, but then got distracted (by something glittery, no doubt).

#303

Posted by: Audley Z. Darkheart OM, purveyor of candy and lies Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 3:55 PM

THIS IS NOT 'BRUCE' -IT'S HIS MOTHER.

Wut.

That has got to be the best flounce ever.

#304

Posted by: otrame Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 4:06 PM

Jpmccalliii,
Yeah, I have had similar conversations. One woman, many years ago, whispered to me that she wished they could keep the black people out of the (Air Force) base laundromat. I replied LOUDLY, "Yeah, because if you hang out around black people all the time you might find out they are human, just like you, and you might make some new friends and that would be TERRIBLE!" Boy did she run away. I hate when someone assumes I am a racist fuck like them just because I am white.

And like you, I have had issues because my sons both married women of (at least some) color and all of my grandkids are racially mixed. I once had to tell a guy I was working with that I would appreciate it if he would stop referring to my grandkids as niggers.

The way I look at it is that every time something like what happened to you happens, we enforce the idea that such behavior has a chance of earning you some humiliation. Every little bit helps.

#305

Posted by: PZ Myers Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 4:11 PM

The comment from "Bruce's mom" was posted from the same computer that all the Bruce posts were coming from.

It's also the same moron who was behind the name "Curlew".

He's trolling. All his comments will be deleted shortly.

#306

Posted by: PZ Myers Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 4:17 PM

Also, guys, I've got a lot of work to get done here today -- I'm getting a near-final copy of the book to my editor by this weekend. I really don't have time for trolling idiots.

Could you just kill them when they show up? Quick or slow, I don't care, however you want to do it. The Wolf's number is on the notepad by the kitchen phone, or if you'd rather do it yourself, the woodchipper is out back.

#307

Posted by: otrame Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 4:21 PM

@320
Yeah Brownian kinda does that a lot around here. When I see his nym come up, I make sure to swallow before I read it. Just a pro tip.

And if you really are Bruce's mother , good for you. He's lucky you care enough about him to keep an eye on him. Of course if you aren't Bruce's mother ....LOSER.

#308

Posted by: haltritz Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 4:25 PM

"I can sort of understand where the administrators are coming from."

So can I. From the athletic department. In my experience as a high school teacher, most of the administrators I worked for were former coaches or still coached. Why would a coach be interested in a nerdy kid with a brain?

#309

Posted by: llewelly Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 4:29 PM

PZ:

The Wolf's number is on the notepad by the kitchen phone ...

"The Wolf"? "The Wolf"? Forget "The Wolf". We should call in the Death Squads of Anti-Grav Equipped Attack Squid, armed with diamond-edged Vibro-Swords and Cyber-Laser targeted Railguns.





(I can't believe PZ of all people suggested a namby-pamby mammal, for FSM's sake.)


#310

Posted by: KOPD Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 4:29 PM

It's also the same moron who was behind the name "Curlew".
I had a really strong suspicion that would be the case.
#311

Posted by: Utakata Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 4:32 PM

Um...thanks for taking the time to explain that to me Illuminata at now 264. But in hindsite, all his comments have been nuked by our esteemed host with the above explanation. It's now appears he was a sock puppet of the racist fuckwit and troll Curlew...telling us not to swear, yet using a variation of the N word liberally under his other persona. How do people get like that? :(

#312

Posted by: Audley Z. Darkheart OM, purveyor of candy and lies Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 4:33 PM

Also, guys, I've got a lot of work to get done here today --I'm getting a near-final copy of the book to my editor by this weekend. I really don't have time for trolling idiots.

Woo hoo! Book!

But isn't troll squishing SallyStrange's job? Quick! Light the Sally Signal™!

#313

Posted by: PZ Myers Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 4:36 PM

"The Wolf" is a Pulp Fiction reference. Philistines.

#314

Posted by: AshPlant Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 4:38 PM

But PZ! You're the only one who can slay trolls here! What are we supposed to do when CurBruce gets his friends in that he threatened, just circle around and around calling them out on every. single. fail. until they finally mire themselves in their own shite and run off claiming they've won because we're Upset On The Internet at them, conveniently able to hide their sad, dribbling lives that consist of simulating joy by mildly irritating people with the cheapest of insults behind a barrier of anonymity that does absolutely nothing to conceal their own galactic-sized shortcomings while we sit around and share sympathy, anecdotes, real debates and delicious spicy pork recipes?

...oh right. Yeah. Doesn't sound too bad.

#315

Posted by: Mattir-ritated Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 4:57 PM

Should either of the Spawn show up trolling, I can promise that the maternal response will be considerably more severe than mere grounding and confiscation of computer equipment. At a minimum, it would involve a LOT of discussion, of the painful Mom-Please-Stop-Talking-About-This variety, a healthy dose of "of course you're going to spend the day week month digging me a root cellar", and the hand pulling eradication of every single exotic invasive plant within a mile of my house.

And, of course, an essay on why trolling is bad, to be graded on TET.

#316

Posted by: Andy Breeden Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 4:59 PM

I'm proud of Kimberly and her mother. The school was very, very wrong, and they should be in a big mess for what they did.

And it's race, people. Period. Heads out of asses, OK?

#317

Posted by: Andy Breeden Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 5:01 PM

(PZ's comments are high-larious!)

#318

Posted by: Bill Door Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 5:02 PM

It rings more true that they didn't want an unwed teen mommy...but, hey, I could be wrong.

“My mother’s Puerto Rican, my father’s Negro, and we lived in a big Jewish tenement building — in an Italian neighborhood. So every time I went outside, they’d yell, ‘Get him! He’s all of them!’”
- Richard Pryor

#319

Posted by: Nerd of Redhead, OM Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 5:07 PM

Could you just kill them when they show up? Quick or slow, I don't care, however you want to do it. The Wolf's number is on the notepad by the kitchen phone, or if you'd rather do it yourself, the woodchipper is out back.
*checks sharpness of sling blade*
And, of course, an essay on why trolling is bad, to be graded on TET.
*Tries to sharpen red pen with sling blade, dulling the blade and causing a mess*
#320

Posted by: 'Tis Himself, OM Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 5:11 PM

jpmccalliii,

You've got cute kids.

#321

Posted by: howaboutanemail Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 5:15 PM

Same thing happened to me in high-school (Relating to PZ with his SAT scores) except it was with the ACT. Got mentioned at an assembly, and that was that. Oh, and I won the "Science Bowl" by a large margin. My entire high-school existence was anonymous. However, I'm a white dude.

Of course, that girls deserves to be recognized solely and specifically for her achievements (My or anyone else's experience notwithstanding). If there were a tie or something, that's a different story, but she got robbed. It's not entirely clear to me that the motives were racist, and not classist or cliqueist, but that doesn't change the fact the actions were wrong. Probably all the above mentioned prejudices factored in to some degree.

#322

Posted by: Ing: PhD Trollologist Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 5:21 PM

@PZ

You wantz uz ta make it looks like a accident, boss?

#323

Posted by: prisha Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 5:25 PM

I am a white America who grow up in an all white community in Michigan though I have lived in New York City, San Francisco and Raleigh. I have many people in my life who are Black who I love and care deeply for. They are not all Americans. Many are from countries in Africa, the Caribbean, and Brazil too.
What disturbs me to my core is that even with all this I can still feel my own prejudice lurking under the surface.

I saw it a few weeks ago when I went to a Juneteenth Celebration. I was the only White person there. I felt like an outsider. A Black woman asked me what I was doing there. I thought she felt suspicious of me and I thought she looked angry. I told her I came for inspiration. She smiled. My prejudice told me she looked angry. I don't think she was.

I was in Detroit taking photographs of the good the bad and the ugly. I was driving through neighborhoods with many Black families sitting outside. My prejudice told me "lock the door". Why would I need to lock my car door in a neighborhood of families? Would I have that same reaction in a neighborhood of White people playing with their kids in the yard?

I went to a Bangladesh Street Fair in Detroit. My White female friend happily took photographs of groups of young Bangladesh men hanging out, playing basket ball and walking around the street fair. Then we went to another street fair in a Black neighborhood on the same day. When my same friend saw a group of young Black men she said, "I don't feel safe. Let's get out of here". I could feel my own desire to leave too. I didn't feel safe at a street fair? That is crazy. That was prejudice.

These are just a couple of examples of being able to feel my prejudice. I could go on and on. I don't believe any White person who tells me they don't feel any of this. They are lairs. Maybe they lie to themselves too.

Gosh, I wish we could talk honestly about it. The world is starving for the Black perspective. My life would feel sterile and bleak without my Black friends, my favorite Black writers, my favorite Black actors and musicians and artists, my favorite co-workers and even most of my favorite politicians (if there is such a thing)are Black (think Maxine Waters and Karen Bass). If I had one wish it would be to sit down with Wangri Maathai and learn what it takes to make a difference in the world.

#324

Posted by: Mattir-ritated Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 5:32 PM

prisha - If you didn't have an inner racist, you wouldn't be a human being living in a racist culture. I have plenty of inner racist thoughts. I came by those voices honestly by growing up in the United States, but those voices do not get to run my mouth, they don't choose whether to go to Juneteenth celebrations, live and work in majority-african-american communities, or donate money to human rights groups. They also don't get to convince me to deny that they exist.

#325

Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 5:35 PM

prisha, it's not just you. But at least you recognize it.

I occasionally have to smack myself as well. More than I'd like.

#326

Posted by: necronomikron Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 5:40 PM

prisha:

Welcome to the human condition. We humans have a seeming biological need to classify others, and identify with certain groups. Create 'me vs them' mentalities, etc.

Don't let such thoughts rule your actions, nor your mouth, and you're doing what you can.

I suppose you can say that there is a little racist in each of us: it's how humans think, us tribal, social creatures.

#327

Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 5:44 PM

"Yeah, because if you hang out around black people all the time you might find out they are human, just like you, and you might make some new friends and that would be TERRIBLE!" Boy did she run away. I hate when someone assumes I am a racist fuck like them just because I am white.


Man I get that shit ALL the time.

Because of my manner of dress and appearance people assume a lot about me that just isn't the case.

I've had to run off people who think it's cool to casually throw various racial and sexual slurs around thinking that I'd approve. Blatantly.

It's annoying as hell.

#328

Posted by: Dude... Real Men Watch Ponies! Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 5:55 PM

@PZ

The comment from "Bruce's mom" was posted from the same computer that all the Bruce posts were coming from.


It's also the same moron who was behind the name "Curlew".


He's trolling. All his comments will be deleted shortly.

But won't Bruce's mom, logically, be posting from either the same computer or likely the same IP address?
Not to say I believe that was Bruce's mom in the first place.

#329

Posted by: Brownian, Most Vicious & Petty of Pharyngulites Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 6:02 PM

prisha, it's not just you. But at least you recognize it.
I occasionally have to smack myself as well. More than I'd like.

Guilty as charged as well.

#330

Posted by: Brownian, Most Vicious & Petty of Pharyngulites Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 6:19 PM

It's also the same moron who was behind the name "Curlew".
He's trolling. All his comments will be deleted shortly.

He did say he was gonna leave and send someone in his place. He just got the past and future mixed up.

#331

Posted by: The Pint Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 6:22 PM

"The Wolf"? "The Wolf"? Forget "The Wolf". We should call in the Death Squads of Anti-Grav Equipped Attack Squid, armed with diamond-edged Vibro-Swords and Cyber-Laser targeted Railguns.

I'm just going to sit over here with my trusty blowtorch and plethora of full-fueled fire toys. Just in case.

#332

Posted by: Ze Madmax Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 6:24 PM

"The Wolf" is a Pulp Fiction reference. Philistines.

:D

PZ won the Internet. Seriously, if there was any doubt before this, now it's just game over man. Game over.

#333

Posted by: Rey Fox, Bird Caller Guy Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 6:32 PM

Why does such an odious troll have to use such a beautiful bird for a handle?

#334

Posted by: KingUber Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 6:54 PM

I don't remember anything like that happening to me in high school. And I wasn't one of the cool kids either

#335

Posted by: Mattir-ritated Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 7:03 PM

Well, if it didn't happen to KingUber, it's gotta be fiction. I mean, really, what are the odds?

#336

Posted by: unwept Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 7:32 PM

prisha @ 323
Yeah. It sucks and you have to live with it pretty much all your life. Kudos for you for being the first to talk about it in this thread.
But that's the point of PC, too, something that the PC bashers will never understand: if it's not said, or, as is more likely, if it's shown to be unacceptable, there is a chance, however slight, that it will not contaminate the future generations.
Here's to hope!

#337

Posted by: https://www.google.com/accounts/o8/id?id=AItOawlIqM0HhQNb2YK_ThxJE9L1lRZzl0eyUmY Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 7:51 PM

It's funny, PZ: I ran into the same sort of thing in college. I was active in student publications (edited one) and had a lot of interactions with various deans; some of them were invariably kind, friendly, and professional, but some of them treated me like I was some lower form of life in a roomful of betters. It was a private school, and a lot of the kids in it came from moneyed, educated families; I did not, nor did I look or act like the typical doctor's, lawyer's, or stockbroker's kid. It was a bit dismaying to find that, even among people who run institutions of higher learning, brains and capability do not always outweigh class markers, but oh well.

#338

Posted by: Cthulhu's minion Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 7:53 PM

I grew up in the area and it makes the rest of the south look liberal. I know of one suspected lynching as late as 1980 (never investigated since police were involved but that was the rumor).

The last time I went back, it amazed me how the place was just dripping with racism - every conversation would have racist remarks out of nowhere. It's almost as if that was the most important thing in their lives.

#339

Posted by: Ze Madmax Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 8:01 PM

prisha @ #323

I'll admit after your first few sentences, I was expecting some whitesplainin'. And then you go and make me realize I was thoroughly wrong. Kudos for having the kind of awareness I wish (and work at trying to) have!

#340

Posted by: John Morales Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 8:21 PM

[meta + OT]

Inspired by PZ, an allegory: Butch Coolidge choosing his weapon

#341

Posted by: Tethys- zombi feministe calmar-garou. Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 9:16 PM

So how sad is it that my Father moved to this area specifically for the racism? And he wonders why I don't visit, or speak to him.
I hope Ms. Wimberly wins her court case. The fact that she has achieved so much in that atmosphere is incredible to me.

#342

Posted by: Old Rasputin Author Profile Page | July 26, 2011 10:20 PM

Hi, I'm not around here much, but for some reason I felt compelled to read down through this string of comments, and I must say I was not disappointed. There were thrills, chills, and even a plot twist (regarding the identity of 'Bruce') toward the end. This experience really has had a sense of the theatrical about it.

#343

Posted by: Vicky Author Profile Page | July 27, 2011 5:51 AM

Seadel:

Has it not occurred to anyone that Curlew/Bruce was a very realistic poe ?

The thing about that is, a Poe usually pokes fun at creationist arguments by pushing them to an absurd extreme. That's pretty different than "pretending" to be racist and sexist. Nobody reads what the Poe has to say and is degraded, dehumanized, exposed to the same discrimination they face from other quarters, which is what CurBruTroll was doing.

He* may feel that he is not a racist or a sexist because he's "just joking", and would never say those kinds of things in real life. But he shows himself to be both when he places more value on the fun he has trolling than the feelings and experiences of any women or people of colour who read his words.

*I'm going with male because of the male 'nym; and because, although women can certainly be sexist, they don't tend to be quite so blatantly "bitches ain't shit".

#344

Posted by: Vicky Author Profile Page | July 27, 2011 6:14 AM

I say people of colour; he was obviously attacking black people specifically, and I didn't mean to hide that behind every single other non-white person on the planet. Apologies.

#345

Posted by: mikee Author Profile Page | July 27, 2011 6:43 AM

Whether they denied her the role valedictorian based on her race or on her being a teen mum, it is blatantly unfair (can't see any subtlety in it at all).

pathetic. I hope in 10 years time she looks back from a successful career and laughs at those who tried to put her down.

#346

Posted by: StevoR Author Profile Page | July 27, 2011 7:24 AM

@341. Thethys :

I hope Ms. Wimberly wins her court case. The fact that she has achieved so much in that atmosphere is incredible to me.

Seconded.

Would your handle here have anything to do with the Saturnian moon by any chance?

@#203. Janine, The Little Top Of Venom, OM | July 26, 2011 12:45 PM :

CupcakoR, that is a lots of works used to try to explain why you feel justified to be an assclam. One last bit for you, you willfully obtuse assclam, just because I tell youfuck you, it does not mean that I ever want to have sex with you. [Insult snipped.]

Yeah I kinda figured that much out already for myself. It's called sarcasm.

You pissed me off. You misunderstood and misinterpreted what I was saying and started abusing me. So, yeah, I responded sarcastically to piss you off back. Look up Newton's second law sometime.

An apology from you would be nice and is owed methinks.

Ing: Od Wet Rust | July 26, 2011 12:45 PM

"Well, dead porcupines tend not to be very ride-on-able and suprisingly enough I don't happen to have any around right now. Also, sorry, Janine, but I'm not really keen for sexual intercourse with you right now. Have fun and thanks for the offer anyhow! ;-) "

AHAHAHAHHAHA how utterly sleazy. Banworthy

You reckon? Really? And this was worse than how Janine abused me how exactly?

I suggest you scroll back over what we both said and rethink whose conduct is more banworthy - mine or Janine's. A lot of blogs don't tolerate the sort of abuse of other commenters and general ad hominems that Janine indulges herself in. Yeah, this isn't one of those blogs I know that - and I'm not calling for her to be banned either - But that still does not make what she did right.

Believe it or not Janine I'm actually on your side on most of this. (Just not the parts where you abuse me without reason because you don't get what I'm saying and jump to *very* erroneous conclusions of your own.) Try to keep that in mind in future please.

#347

Posted by: StevoR Author Profile Page | July 27, 2011 7:30 AM

@eaDel | July 27, 2011 2:40 AM :

Has it not occurred to anyone that Curlew/Bruce was a very realistic poe?

Nup. Poes are generally funny and don't involve calling people racist names or come across so nastily serious - Poes don't usually get banned. Or start pretending to be their own mothers - or have their own mothers haul them offline by their ears whichever the case may be.

#348

Posted by: Nerd of Redhead, OM Author Profile Page | July 27, 2011 7:40 AM

Has it not occurred to anyone that Curlew/Bruce was a very realistic poe ?
Nope, not at all. Nothing but a bigotted fuckwit. Not funny, not making fun of anything, just being a troll. Poes mimic the batshit insane, like the religious, to the point where you can't tell the difference. In this case, there was actual and obvious malice with the posts. Which is typical of fuckwits who get around PZs banhammer. They aren't funny, just mean.


Oh, and StevoR, just insulting you is not a ad hominin argument.

#349

Posted by: nemo the derv Author Profile Page | July 27, 2011 7:51 AM

#350
so would that make bruce a faux poe?
Sorry, I knew that was bad.
couldn't help myself.

#350

Posted by: John Morales Author Profile Page | July 27, 2011 8:13 AM

[meta]

Sprout:

Janine is an uppity arrogant fool and totally full of herself.
She is not even able to understand sarcasm as you say.

That's Janine OM to whom you refer.

(Clueless, you are)

--

StevoR addresses Janine:

An apology from you would be nice and is owed methinks.

Your feeling of entitlement is noted, O pimple.

#351

Posted by: Illuminata, féministes fin de jeu Author Profile Page | July 27, 2011 9:23 AM

Someone page Janine. She's got another whining dishonest fanboy desperate for her attention.

#352

Posted by: Nerd of Redhead, OM Author Profile Page | July 27, 2011 9:27 AM

Order of the Molly doesn't negate any of the accusations made silly man Morales.
PZ, I think our banned troll is back. This sounds like his idiocy.
#353

Posted by: Nerd of Redhead, OM Author Profile Page | July 27, 2011 10:23 AM

Back again fuckwit? Who wants to listen to an abject loser who doesn't understand he is not wanted due to terminal stupidity.

#354

Posted by: amylacc Author Profile Page | July 27, 2011 10:41 AM

It sounds like this student has a lot more on the ball than her fellow students. It will feel pretty good in 20 years to go back and see that that her classmates have become losers who never went anywhere (while still basking in the glow of their "glory days" in high school), while she is a successful scientist or whatever she chooses to do. Of course that doesn't remove the sting right now.

I am speculating here, but this sounds like a combination of racism and typical small town small-mindedness, where if you do not conform to whatever twisted norms there are (and of course having a child while still a teenager puts you on the wrong side of that line) you are punished.

#355

Posted by: dejour Author Profile Page | July 28, 2011 4:32 PM

It sounds like a case of modern racism.

I suspect that the people involved have other rationalizations besides race - almost no one wants to think of themselves as racist.

But that's how racism typically shows itself nowadays. When the situation is ambiguous, people go with a gut feeling and that gut feeling is usually pretty racist.

There's a psych study where they show subjects resumes for job applicants. Six different conditions - strong, ambiguous and poor credentials. And either black or white. So everyone hires the strong students regardless of race, and no one hires the weak students regardless of race. But for the border line cases, there's a big difference is willingness to hire (maybe 75% of these questionable whites are hired and 35% of questionable blacks.)

This situation is somewhat similar. Obviously the students involved are strong students, but they are borderline cases as far as being valedictorian goes. So when an argument can be made either way, people go with their gut - which is often racist.

#356

Posted by: sandwiches19 Author Profile Page | July 28, 2011 6:03 PM

Use the interwebs people. The other girl had more class credits and the school chooses valedictorians based on both grades and the difficulty of coursework. And they were co-valedictorians.

http://news.yahoo.com/high-school-student-alleges-racial-bias-valedictorian-choice-223416668.html

Another misrepresentation by Myers. Are you going for a record sir?

#357

Posted by: Nerd of Redhead, OM Author Profile Page | July 28, 2011 6:08 PM

Another misrepresentation by Myers. Are you going for a record sir?No, you are fuckwit troll.

#358

Posted by: CJO Author Profile Page | July 28, 2011 6:19 PM

From the article you linked to:

Some school personnel expressed concern that Wimberly's valedictorian status might cause a "big mess," the suit says. The next day, the co-valedictorian was announced.

What kind of mess, do you suppose?

And if, as Wimberly alleges, the school had never selected co-valedictorians except in cases of a tie for highest GPA, what was the motivation to do so in this particular case, given that the school had never had a black valedictorian before?

#359

Posted by: Doktor Zoom Author Profile Page | July 28, 2011 10:56 PM

Late update--CBC's "As it Happens" interviewed Ms. Wimberly on their July 28 show; http://www.cbc.ca/asithappens/episode/2011/07/28/thursday-july-28th-2011/

#360

Posted by: sandwiches19 Author Profile Page | July 29, 2011 7:40 AM

What kind of mess, do you suppose?

I don't know what kind of mess, and neither do you. But you automatically jump to racism. It could be because she is a single mother. Or maybe she is just a jerk and nobody likes her. There are plenty of things it could be other than racism.

And I accept that it could be racism. But no one here knows and yet judging from the comments its already been decided that its racism. Are you people skeptics or not?

#361

Posted by: Nerd of Redhead, OM Author Profile Page | July 29, 2011 7:56 AM

Are you people skeptics or not?
We are skeptics. You have an obvious animus against PZ which hurts your credibility. Keep that in mind every time you post. We are skeptical of what you say, and why you say it.


You don't define skepticism, and how skeptics should react in any situation. We do it all separately. I do see some racism there, also some bigotry against single mothers, which was probably the major reason for the decision of co-valedictorians. The horde went through and analyzed the problem. You added nothing. Quit trolling.

#362

Posted by: sandwiches19 Author Profile Page | July 29, 2011 9:20 AM

You totally shattered all of the claims I did not make. Well done sir.

I didn't say I defined skepticism. And your adulation for Myers hurts your credibility.

I guess disagreeing and not joining the Pharyngula circle jerk makes me a troll who adds nothing.

#363

Posted by: Nerd of Redhead, OM Author Profile Page | July 29, 2011 9:46 AM

I guess disagreeing and not joining the Pharyngula circle jerk makes me a troll who adds nothing.

Yep it can. You just said PZ was wrong. Your evidence didn't back up your claims. If no racism is involved it is up to your demonstrate it. NADA. Try not being a troll.

I have no adulation for PZ like you erroneously pretend I do. I am a fellow scientist, older than PZ, and I have called him out when I thought he was wrong. Another false claim Either prove your point, or fade into the bandwidth. You are offering nothing cogent to the discussion with your insipid posts.

#364

Posted by: sandwiches19 Author Profile Page | July 29, 2011 10:05 AM

The burden of proof is on the person making the claim not the person disputing the claim. You just demonstrated your obvious bias in that last post. You see the racism and then it up to others to disprove.

Good day

#365

Posted by: Algernon, elle sans chapeau Author Profile Page | July 29, 2011 11:31 AM

Hmmm... I'm hoping for a followup on this. I'd like to know that she was vindicated, to be honest. That's just nasty. What's the "big mess" here? A teen mother who is black has the highest GPA. Oh NOEEESSS our prejudices might be wrong! The pain! Make it stop!!!!! She's supposed to drop out and be on welfare! How the hell else will we excuse our bigotry in other areas if we have to face our bigotry here? FUCK!

#366

Posted by: Nerd of Redhead, OM Author Profile Page | July 29, 2011 11:49 AM

Good day
you should have done that before you posted your inane "rebuttal". If you see no evidence for racism in what PZ presented, you are either blind, or erroneously think that we are a post-racist society. We have a ways to go yet to be at that point, and this incident shows why.
#367

Posted by: sandwiches19 Author Profile Page | July 30, 2011 3:20 AM

Superintendent Thomas Gathen told KLRT-TV in Little Rock the second girl took more classes and that a school rule prevents extra course work from penalizing students when calculating grade point averages.

http://www.wxvt.com/Global/story.asp?S=15176438

Gathen is black by the way.

http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/43887197/ns/today-today_news/t/black-student-sues-over-valedictorian-flap/

I will be standing by for an apology Nerd.

#368

Posted by: pteryxx Author Profile Page | July 30, 2011 9:01 AM

Superintendent Thomas Gathen told KLRT-TV in Little Rock the second girl took more classes and that a school rule prevents extra course work from penalizing students when calculating grade point averages.

Because, of course, The Rules have NEVER been mis-used by those in authority to justify whatever they wanted to do anyway.

The article’s author details similar cases. Larry Christopher, 1973:

… Larry Christopher was determined to have the highest grade in his class and was set to be named valedictorian of his Stephens, Arkansas school. In a sudden unexpected maneuver, administrators at Stephens High School decided to factor in grades from correspondence courses an 11th grade white student had taken between her sophomore and junior years in order to deny Christopher his spot as top senior in his class.

Adrienne Brown:

In another case, a black senior, Adrienne Brown, was denied the right to be named as the valedictorian because the school determined that she had taken too many AP courses and thought it would be unfair to the other students.

Dennis Harris:

Nine years ago at another Little Rock school, two white students from a school district in another state were allowed to bump Dennis Harris from his top spot. The school district they came from weighted A-grades in AP courses with six points rather than five, a violation of the state’s law for determining how to calculate averages for valedictorians.

Source

But right before graduation, the valedictorian and salutatorian were announced. The white student was proclaimed the salutatorian. All the students were puzzled, as they knew the previous semester’s B had relegated the white student to third place. The administration was questioned. And the administration said that it was an error that would be corrected.

Only the administration did not correct the error. And it announced the white student was the salutatorian at graduation. Afterwards, one of the students was told that it had been too late to change the programs, so the administration had decided to leave them as they had been printed.

---

And at Grapevine High School (Texas), 16-year-old Anjali Datta did not receive the title of valedictorian despite a 5.877 grade point average (second place was 5.64). Typically, valedictorians are separated by miniscule amounts, often even just a hundredth of a point. So Datta really kicked ass–and she did it in three years to boot.

Which caused the Grapevine administration to deny her the honor of valedictorian, because she did not spend four years at the school.

Source

Incidentally, that bit about the administration promising to "fix the mistake" and then conveniently not doing so? That was from an account posted in 2008 - NOT from the story currently under discussion. Although, looks like this school ALSO promised to "fix the mistake"... and then didn't.

#369

Posted by: Markita Lynda: Healthcare is a damn right Author Profile Page | July 31, 2011 5:26 PM

I hope she sues the hind legs off them for borking their own procedures to favour someone else and dis-favour her.

It reminds me in a very small way of my long-ago, functionally all-white high school. Not that they would do anything so unfair: but if a girl was bright, she was smart; if a boy was bright, he was brilliant.

#370

Posted by: sandwiches19 Author Profile Page | July 31, 2011 5:40 PM

Because, of course, The Rules have NEVER been mis-used by those in authority to justify whatever they wanted to do anyway.

Sure, rules are misused all the time. And this may be an example. But the rules were enforced by a black man on the black girl. Therefore it was not racist.

#371

Posted by: Markita Lynda: Healthcare is a damn right Author Profile Page | July 31, 2011 5:50 PM

Back to _my_ high school in the middle ages: the girls used to remark that the guidance teacher steered girls towards teaching and nursing while encouraging the boys to do something more academic. I must admit I didn't notice, myself because I was already telling him I was going into science.

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