Talk:Vancouver

Marine Building

I removed the clause stating the Marine Building was inspired by the Chrysler Building in New York. I don't see how this can be true - the Marine Building was completed in 1929, two years before the Chrysler Building.

Pronunciation

I know there has been some discussion in the past about the IPA pronunciation, but in the local dialect it is most certainly /væŋ.ˈkuːvər/, not /væn.ˈkuːvər/. In fact, to those with an ear for phonetics, the "Vang" versus "Van" dichotomy is something of a shibboleth as to whether or not someone grew up there. The addition of many migrants and non-English speakers to the population may dilute the numbers, but the reality is that most locals say "Vangcouver" (following normal assimilation rules), and non-local English speakers for some reason usually say "Van-couver" (breaking with normal assimilation rules). 192.197.178.2 (talk) 19:41, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

Do you have a reliable source to verify this? Hwy43 (talk) 04:20, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

You're not exactly going to find an encyclopedic entry on a minor cultural point. Especially one that is intuitive (it is the non-local "Vann-couver" pronunciation which is unusual in English, not the local one -- no one says "bann-king" for banking or tann-ker for tanker). Most any native English speaker from the city will agree with the local pronunciation, but it's not like they're writing journal articles on it. The only academic source I can find is note 117 here: https://circle.ubc.ca/bitstream/handle/2429/19387/UBC_1975_A8%20F56.pdf?sequence=1 (if the distinction she makes was true in 1975, it's not any more. People will say the standalone city the same way). This commercial source here also mentions the shibboleth phenomenon: http://www.aboutlanguageschools.com/slang/canadian-slang.asp ("The pronounciation of the name of either the city of Vancouver or of Vancouver Island with a soft and almost unnoticable -g- after the 'Van'. The pronounciation is one associated with native-born Vancouverites who use the absence of a -g- to identify outsiders or recent arrivals.") You can find frequent informal mention of the fact around the Internet, such as here: http://www.vancouverhistory.ca/birthdays_Dec.htm (note the entry for December 31; Rafe Mair is a promiment local radio personality); here: http://www.l2accent.com/blog/page/12/ (March 1st entry); the comment of "Lord Iggy" here, noting the shibboleth effect: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=391201; the comment of Vodka-7 here, also noting the shibboleth effect: http://woxy.com/boards/showthread.php?t=28443&page=4, the comments of "pip" and "eila" here: http://corriecanuck.wordpress.com/2008/09/21/update-for-epiosde-6704-september-19-2008/. 192.197.178.2 (talk) 13:57, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

I removed the UBC thesis paper reference supplied for the /væŋˈkuːvər/ pronunciation. Don't get me wrong; I often pronounce it that way and I think many do. But our guideline for reliable sources suggests that "Masters dissertations and theses are only considered reliable if they can be shown to have had significant scholarly influence." Also, while I think the author, Jane Flick, is probably correct, I don't think she is notable. It's an interesting paper. Its pages on this topic are 117 and 154. --Ds13 (talk) 17:31, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

I selected the first reference from the numerous ones provided by 192.197.178.2 above. Do either of the two that follow qualify as reliable sources? I'm doubtful about the aboutlanguageschools.com one, but the vancouverhistory.ca one seems more promising. The balance are all blog or forum related, so those won't qualify. Hwy43 (talk) 18:18, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

Personally, I would not accept aboutlanguageschools.com since it appears to be a web site based in Spain, selling ad space. And you're right; forum and blog content is useless in a quest for a reliable source. Rafe Mair might be notable. Now, is he or vancouverhistory.ca reliable in this matter? I don't have an opinion any more. Try it and see if it sticks! Cheers. --Ds13 (talk) 18:44, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

It appears vancouverhistory.ca is a website for Chuck Davis' preparation of the book "The History of Metropolitan Vancouver". Mr. Davis, who passed away in 2011, was the author of 14 other books as well as a journalist, broadcaster, TV producer and historian. The book has since been completed and will be released by Harbour Publishing as "The Chris Davis History of Metropolitan Vancouver". The BC Entertainment Hall of Fame reported on his death, which provided much of the information I've summarized above.

My understanding from WP:PSTS is that if Rafe Mair were to add the pronunciation to the article, that would constitute a primary source. Although primary sources can be considered reliable, it is recommended that secondary sources be used instead. Now vancouverhistory.ca is a secondary source, which may be reliable if Chuck Davis is considered reliable per the information provided above.

As you suggested, I'll re-add based on the vancouverhistory.ca reference. Hwy43 (talk) 20:26, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

I have trouble understanding the need for a "source" for the way a city's name is pronounced any more than you would need one to prove that the "k" is pronounced at the end of "New York". "Vann-couver" is actually the one that breaks with standard English phonology -- seems to me that would be more likely to need a source. I note in this respect that none of: the correct pronunciation for Spokane; the local pronunciation of Baltimore; or the usual non-French way to say St. Louis are sourced, even though there is some variation in the way non-locals say it. 192.197.178.2 (talk) 14:22, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

It is sourced because it was removed after the first time it was added despite the initial contributions to this thread already here on the talk page. Hwy43 (talk) 03:12, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

The sourcing is weak. The UBC thesis pdf says that pronunciation happens more in "Vancouver Island" than when the name of the city is said alone (with stress on first syllable). It sounds like the way a child, a person with a Scottish or other accent, or someone reproducing their childhood pronunciation might say it. I asked my daughters, who were born in Metro Vancouver, about this & they just shook their heads. It's not like the one-syllabled "bank". I find pronunciations just get in the way of reading the lede as it is - and two of them moreso. I am thinking that giving such prominence in the lede to such an uncommon pronunciation could be Undue Weight. Do any other reference works give such a pronunciation?--JimWae (talk) 11:17, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

We have no idea whether Raef Mair said it in jest or not - nor whether Chuck Davis was simply repeating the jest. Some people say ath-a-let-ik, Feb-bur-air-ee, piss-get-tee, and newk-you-lur their whole lives--JimWae (talk) 19:20, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

I agree that the source is weak. It is also difficult to interpret, as JimWae has pointed out. If one reads the second clause of that sentence, he says: "and then there’s “Kit-suh-LY-no.” To my mind, this implies that he is mocking the pronunciation and suggesting that it is invalid (for that is certainly the case for the pronunciation “Kit-suh-LY-no”}. I've removed it. Unless someone can find a reliable source for this pronunciation (Vangcouver) we had best leave it out. Sunray (talk) 23:07, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

I actually did hear an announcer on a Vancouver TV station say something that sounded very much like Veng-kou-ver Giants (notice veng). As the M.A. thesis pointed out, it is more likely someone would rush the syllables with a multiword noun. I will keep listening for this.--JimWae (talk) 05:46, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

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Elections

Including information about future municipal elections about a mayor that seeks re-election and a bill is a highly unencyclopedic inclusion to a geography article. Elections happen all the time, and this one is not special. Almost no other city articles discuss mayoral elections, not to mention future elections. Mkdw^talk 08:00, 7 November 2011 (UTC)

Hi. Sorry, I just placed a similar response on your user talk page before seeing your remark here. I don't want to get into an edit war, so let's work this out. You twice reverted my verifiable statement that Vancouver has an upcoming election. You suggest this is a "geography article" but my election content was placed in the "Government" section of the article. An upcoming election is a notable future event for the "government" section. I enclosed a reliable source as reference for it. Your revert comment reads: "Talking about a future election is highly unconventional and unencyclopedic". Do you have a basis for this belief? Wikipedia has always maintained content on future elections. In fact, the Wikipedia:Articles on elections page demonstrates that there is communal consensus to maintaining content on upcoming elections. Maintaining content before and election is specifically discussed. Perhaps others have some guidance for me? --Ds13 (talk) 08:22, 7 November 2011 (UTC)

I'm going to have to agree with Mkdw. Wikipedia is not news. Sprinkling in all this obscure detail about the number of board trustees, etc... into a general article about the city adds length to the article with no general value. On an article about the city's election, there might be a place for it, but very little in the way of the contemporary city electoral process belongs in that city's article.--Louiedog (talk) 03:04, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

The note about infrastructure projects as well, which in addition to being strangely sourced, is again very obscure and of no general interest to readers outside of Vancouver.--Louiedog (talk) 03:05, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

Agreement with NOTNEWS is a given for all of us; it is policy. However, future election content (at least at the national level) has long been acceptable, per the above link. Perhaps some day the municipal level will receive similar treatment, but not by me and not today. Waters have been tested. A couple of weeks from now, we'll likely see the election results appropriately added here anyways. Cheers. --Ds13 (talk) 04:05, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

If the recent attempted contribution is deemed obscure detail, then so is the entire fifth paragraph under Vancouver#Government. That detail is more appropriate at Vancouver municipal election, 2008.

I suggest simply inserting the following after the first sentence in the third paragraph of this section:

The most recent municipal election was held in November 2008, while the next municipal election is scheduled for November 2011.

This would remove all the detail from both the previous and upcoming elections, yet provide interested readers with direct links to the appopriate articles if they want learn more. Hwy43 (talk) 04:39, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

I agree. That paragraph should be removed as well. Again, needless obscure detail.--Louiedog (talk) 15:01, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

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